Next Version of the ATP Forehand

I'm still confused about what you mean by a flow based Type 3 forehand. The swing path should be outside in backswing to inside (the elbow position you are referring to) in the flip to outside to contact. It's an inside (below the ball) to outside swing path.

The elbow looked a Bit more inside. But anyway: can we Blend over the elbow Extension and the leg Drive and still have Type 3 Model?

[jimlosaltos]

Glad these are of interest. I'll ping John about perhaps creating a few sets for Tour Portraits, if that fits his plans.

[hybridfh]

Great work, Jim. It's further round than I thought...erring toward full western in my view.

Looks close to a full W since it seems the pinkie knuckle aligns with bevel 5.

[stotty]

Great work, Jim. It's further round than I thought...erring toward full western in my view.

[jimlosaltos]

Concur. Heel pad position makes a huge difference but is harder to see.

Does this help?

Credit: Mine also from BNP Indian Wells 2022 vs Rafa.

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[hybridfh]

Hard to tell without seeing exactly where the heel pad is sitting. It certainly looks a long way underneath the handle. And yes a strong semi western looks the most likely.

Concur. Heel pad position makes a huge difference but is harder to see.

[stotty]

Hard to tell without seeing exactly where the heel pad is sitting. It certainly looks a long way underneath the handle. And yes a strong semi western looks the most likely.

[stroke]

The comments both of you had on Kyrgios made me dig for a photo to refresh my memory. I magnified his grip section for your possible interest. This is from Indian Wells AKA BNP Paribas 2022.

P.S. We did a Tour Portrait series on grips eons ago. Might be enough new stuff to merit revisiting?

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Thanks, it looks semi to me, a strong semi western.

[jimlosaltos]

Yes good observation on Zverev, probably is some kind of hybrid between the 2. I do think Sinner is pretty much in the same grip as Nick. Sock definitely full western, like Fritz and going back, Igor Andreev, who had a huge forehand. One thing I have always wondered about that slightly flexed forehand preparation position/or neutral wrist preparation position. The model type 3 forehands end up in a neutral wrist position prior to the move to contact also. I have always been curious if it matters much, the initial move prep wrist position.

The comments both of you had on Kyrgios made me dig for a photo to refresh my memory. I magnified his grip section for your possible interest. This is from Indian Wells AKA BNP Paribas 2022.

P.S. We did a Tour Portrait series on grips eons ago. Might be enough new stuff to merit revisiting?

filedata/fetch?id=105505&d=1726345084&type=thumb

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[jimlosaltos]

You are pretty much on it. Sinner definitely a next gen type, similar to Sock and Kyrgios, semi western grip. Grip wise, very similar to Kyrgios grip. Alcaraz pretty much a BG ATP model type 3, as is Dimitrov obviously. Alcaraz in a semi western, Grigor as you say more of an extreme eastern. Grigor certainly to me has no issue dopping back and playing the war of attrition topspin forehand battle, but that is not where he is most effective, nor is any top player. Novak a BG classic type 3 with a strong semi western grip. I would say Zverev has a mild semi western grip and a model ATP type 3, just for whatever reason seems to me to leak more errors off that side than other top forehands. Sidenote, l would have loved to have seen the average forehand shot quality numbers for Nadal and Fed when they were winning all their tournaments. It would have been interesting to see which one was higher. I would certainly think they would have been 1 and 2, just not certain which one would be one and which one would be 2.

Thanks !

[stroke]

I don't see Zverev as "model ATP type 3" given he's got that flexed wrist prep position. I see him somewhere between "modern type 3" and "next gen". When he returned from injury the first thing I noticed was that he was hitting his forehand better (second thing, he lowered his toss) but the prep looked unchanged to my eyes.

Sinner is next gen but quite different than Sock and Kyrgios...those two guys seem to have more extreme grips and are whippier, more compact. Sinner has whip from the extreme racket flip but it's still a pretty full stroke.

Yes good observation on Zverev, probably is some kind of hybrid between the 2. I do think Sinner is pretty much in the same grip as Nick. Sock definitely full western, like Fritz and going back, Igor Andreev, who had a huge forehand. One thing I have always wondered about that slightly flexed forehand preparation position/or neutral wrist preparation position. The model type 3 forehands end up in a neutral wrist position prior to the move to contact also. I have always been curious if it matters much, the initial move prep wrist position.

[hybridfh]

You are pretty much on it. Sinner definitely a next gen type, similar to Sock and Kyrgios, semi western grip. Grip wise, very similar to Kyrgios grip. Alcaraz pretty much a BG ATP model type 3, as is Dimitrov obviously. Alcaraz in a semi western, Grigor as you say more of an extreme eastern. Grigor certainly to me has no issue dopping back and playing the war of attrition topspin forehand battle, but that is not where he is most effective, nor is any top player. Novak a BG classic type 3 with a strong semi western grip. I would say Zverev has a mild semi western grip and a model ATP type 3, just for whatever reason seems to me to leak more errors off that side than other top forehands. Sidenote, l would have loved to have seen the average forehand shot quality numbers for Nadal and Fed when they were winning all their tournaments. It would have been interesting to see which one was higher. I would certainly think they would have been 1 and 2, just not certain which one would be one and which one would be 2.

I don't see Zverev as "model ATP type 3" given he's got that flexed wrist prep position. I see him somewhere between "modern type 3" and "next gen". When he returned from injury the first thing I noticed was that he was hitting his forehand better (second thing, he lowered his toss) but the prep looked unchanged to my eyes.

Sinner is next gen but quite different than Sock and Kyrgios...those two guys seem to have more extreme grips and are whippier, more compact. Sinner has whip from the extreme racket flip but it's still a pretty full stroke.

[stroke]

Would anyone care to describe each forehand? It's beyond me to do it justice, but that 5 forehands can be so different and comprise the top 5 might be interest.

My rudimentary start:

1) Sinner; Severe grip, bent arm. Can take the ball very early, used to be prone to errors hitting wide, running fhd
2) Carlos: Straight arm forehand, moderate Western
3) Djokovic: I believe he's moved from somewhere in between western and semi to a semi-western grip in later years.
4) Dimitrov: Conservative, modified eastern grip, semi-open stance. Can (has to?) take the ball early.
5) Zverev. Fastest forehand of the top players but more error prone, Full Western. Semi open or open, Big, high take back

You are pretty much on it. Sinner definitely a next gen type, similar to Sock and Kyrgios, semi western grip. Grip wise, very similar to Kyrgios grip. Alcaraz pretty much a BG ATP model type 3, as is Dimitrov obviously. Alcaraz in a semi western, Grigor as you say more of an extreme eastern. Grigor certainly to me has no issue dopping back and playing the war of attrition topspin forehand battle, but that is not where he is most effective, nor is any top player. Novak a BG classic type 3 with a strong semi western grip. I would say Zverev has a mild semi western grip and a model ATP type 3, just for whatever reason seems to me to leak more errors off that side than other top forehands. Sidenote, l would have loved to have seen the average forehand shot quality numbers for Nadal and Fed when they were winning all their tournaments. It would have been interesting to see which one was higher. I would certainly think they would have been 1 and 2, just not certain which one would be one and which one would be 2.

[jimlosaltos]

I love this shot quality stat. Sinner with his ping pong taking the ball on so early at number 1 no surprise to me. 2, 3, and 4, not a surprise either. Grigor has had a great season, and his prototype ATP type 3 forehand is a thing of beauty. Zverev at number 5 a bit of a surprise to me as he certainly seems to leak more errors from that shot than the very best.

Would anyone care to describe each forehand? It's beyond me to do it justice, but that 5 forehands can be so different and comprise the top 5 might be interest.

My rudimentary start:

1) Sinner; Severe grip, bent arm. Can take the ball very early, used to be prone to errors hitting wide, running fhd
2) Carlos: Straight arm forehand, moderate Western
3) Djokovic: I believe he's moved from somewhere in between western and semi to a semi-western grip in later years.
4) Dimitrov: Conservative, modified eastern grip, semi-open stance. Can (has to?) take the ball early.
5) Zverev. Fastest forehand of the top players but more error prone, Full Western. Semi open or open, Big, high take back

[stroke]

Cross posting since today's ATP "Tennis Insight" rating of forehand "shot quality" for 2024 might be of interest.

My amateur take is that there are several different styles represented in the top 5.

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I love this shot quality stat. Sinner with his ping pong taking the ball on so early at number 1 no surprise to me. 2, 3, and 4, not a surprise either. Grigor has had a great season, and his prototype ATP type 3 forehand is a thing of beauty. Zverev at number 5 a bit of a surprise to me as he certainly seems to leak more errors from that shot than the very best.