Son's Forehand

[stotty]

I studied the clip of Roger. Would we agree that Roger does not actually jump of both feet (or at least there is very little back leg contribution when it comes to the jump)? He seems to load with his weight on both legs, bit his actual jump does not begin until there is virtually no weight on his right leg (you can see him on an extreme tip toe with his right foot before he launches into the air).

I believe he is driving up strongly with the rear leg. It just leaves the ground earlier because the right side of his body is extending up to contact.

[postpre]

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

I studied the clip of Roger. Would we agree that Roger does not actually jump off both feet (or at least there is negligible back leg contribution when it comes to his jump)? He seems to load with his weight on both legs, but his actual jump does not begin until there is virtually no weight on his right leg (you can see him on an extreme tip toe with his right foot before he launches into the air).

[postpre]

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

Thanks for your thoughts. I would like to address what you noted about Roger and his shoulder turn when I get more time later today. To clarify, in the video my son employed the narrow platform on the first two serves as a corrective drill; the last three serves were more normal for him. Though his platform is not as wide as Fed, Sampras. I'm currently experimenting with how far to separate his feet.

[stotty]

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

Lovely serve...plenty to work with. The narrow stance doesn't seem to suit his serve somehow. Narrow bases tend to be the preserve of abbreviated swings, like Roddick's and Monfils'.

It would be great to get a side view of the serve, and one in slow motion form the rear so we can see his internal shoulder rotation?

I haven't studied your son's serve much yet but the first thing that stands out is the ball toss. His tossing arm raises the ball straight up with no turning of the shoulder. See how Roger turns his shoulders away from the court as he's tossing the ball. I really like this method and Roger has it about perfect.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...2%20500fps.mp4

[stotty]

I think you described the main problem very well yourself. There is a big difference between falling forward and going up on a serve. When a player falls forward you can see that in his (her) bad, unbalanced landing. In the clip the boy shifts his weight from his back to his front foot (falling) before going up. This leads to the akward landing.
Good explanation is given by Rick Macci here (min 7:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys56ikfLXFc

Nice video. I am big on knee symmetry too. It would interesting to see how far into the court someone like Novak would be compared to McEnroe. Back then it was more about propelling forward than going up.

[lovati4]

I think you described the main problem very well yourself. There is a big difference between falling forward and going up on a serve. When a player falls forward you can see that in his (her) bad, unbalanced landing. In the clip the boy shifts his weight from his back to his front foot (falling) before going up. This leads to the akward landing.
Good explanation is given by Rick Macci here (min 7:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys56ikfLXFc

[don_budge]

Wiggle Room...

There is always wiggle room in all of this. From the timing of the release of the left hand to the width of the service stance. At a certain point one must allow for individualistic interpretation and creative interpretations as long as fundamentally everything is sound. What is unsound is the point of intervention.

The question of stance width was raised in the thread about the Brian Gordon video on stance. A very valid point too. I don't think that you can take things overly literal.

Looks more like he just compromised between the two stances more than picking one. Also I was looking for some data to back up the opinions he stated, but it seemed he hasn't gone that far yet? I can see why he likes the platform better with less moving parts and easier to teach.

Interesting question. The narrower stance on the platform raised my eyebrows also. I would advocate a wider stance myself but this comes down to feel for the player. Not ultimates dictated from the coach...or even "The Great Brian Gordon". Differences between advocates is not a problem. Sometimes it does come down to quantitative versus qualitative. In the end...I tend to be qualitative. In fact...not just tends but wholly. I am interested in the quantitative now as well as Brian has peaked my interest with the videos. It certainly gives me a better feel for his explanations when I can watch and see how he expresses his ideas. A qualitative approach to quantitative reasoning.

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

Here is a case in point from a recent poster with his son's service motion. The video looks to be rather constrained and I would much rather see the original motion with the wider stance because I imagine that the student is more comfortable and feels better with the original than the modified. You see there must be some wiggle room in the width of the stance. Nothing is set in stone here.

teachestennis...I thought it was a great question when I read your post. I was waiting for the opportune moment to respond to it. It will be interesting to see what Brian has to say as well.

[postpre]

I recorded a few serves today. He wasn't going big. The first couple were without the use of much legs, with narrow platform (taking cues from Brian Gordon, Macci). I've been wanting him to interact with his back leg more but it doesn't come easy for him (with his usual slightly wider platform). Putting his feet closer together tends to simplify weight transfer issues and allows him to feel more weight on the back leg. Also, you may not be able to catch this due to the quality of the video, but he tends to take a little bit of ESR into the beginning of the racquet drop. Even Fed, Sampras, Raonic, etc., lay the wrist back a bit to facilitate the racket drop. I'm not sure what to think about this. Let me know if you see anything with his technique that you find problematic or that can lead to injury.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYux...Wd31Ih9o2WPw8Q

Sorry, the video was private when it was initially downloaded. It's public now.

[stotty]

You are right about how the harder stretch will be easier if he releases his left arm a tad earlier. I am not as clear as I'd like to be on what you and John are suggesting about closing the racket face a few degrees. I want to make sure that I'm on point here. Could you provide a further clarification or clip that can help me understand?

Also, my son does move pretty well for his size. He is not super explosive yet, but he's pretty quick. He is just over 6ft tall now (with lots of growth left). He is very coordinated with his feet and hands (from lots of basketball and drills we've done from an early age).

Roger has the best example of a forehand you could possibly have...the gold standard.

Roger's racket face it slightly closed as he initiates the backswing and it stays closed all the way. See here:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...ar4_250fps.mp4

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...de7_250fps.mp4

don_budge has a great point about trying to make your son an all round player. There's a gap in the market - on all levels of play - for good net players because on all levels of play, from league players to ATP players, net players have vanished. The school of thought is that the players have found the best way to play on today's court. They was probably true at one point but the baseline bashing has been going on so long now that coaches simply don't teach the net game much anymore. Players can't suddenly learn serve and volley and attack the net once they are twenty. It's too late and they will never become comfortable with it. The style of play today is likely more the 'coaches' fault' as oppose to 'the players have fathomed the best way'.

[don_budge]

I like your perspective, and that you speak your mind :-). I've been pushing for my son to look for opportunities to come in and develop his forecourt and net game. You are right in that he doesn't do this or practice this enough. But I see a ton of potential with him in this regard. He probably sees himself more like Djokovic (his idol), but I see him more like Federer. I think he has the power potential, creativity, and finesse to pull it off pretty well, if he dedicates to this game style. He has a great backhand slice for his age, and uses it a lot even in competition. His backhand volley is also natural. He could have been a one hander, no doubt. He toys around with it in practice and always enjoys it. But he has just recently turned the corner with the two hander, and has become very solid. He has avoided some of the double handed pitfalls of a Raonic, Isner, or Roddick, in developing the stroke. I don't know, maybe he could be a Tsonga and be able to use both options! Would you switch to a one hander to accommodate an attacking game, merely? Would you see a need to change if the two hander is developing well?

I mentioned basketball and somehow I hit the target again. I love the crossover between basketball and tennis. Offence and defence. You see this only in Roger Federer...these types of "plays". He is always looking to aggressively attack and in the words of Bill Tilden, to put and maintain pressure on the opponent. I see Djokovic in the forehand of your son and I don't like it one little bit either. If I had a boy like this, his size and skills, like you I always see Federer. I never see Djokovic.

If I were his coach at this point I would be transitioning him off of the backhand immediately. You mention some big guys with pitfalls and unless your son leaves that paradigm in the rearview mirror right now he will be stuck with it. So many big guys on the ATP tour playing like women and children. Why would a man need to hit a two handed backhand? That choice in itself limits a player's choices and there is so little room for growth if that is the chosen road. After eight or nine years of playing like that I think that I would die of boredom. Burnout. A common problem of these infants that start too young. They are done before they had a chance.

The game was played one handed backhand for a very long time and the two handed strokes were considered to be unorthodox. Granted there were some great strokes produced with two hands even historically but for a student of mine, much less my son, I now insist that they drop the second hand. I have a stated teaching paradigm postpre and it goes like this. Bill Tilden is the book. Richard Gonzalez is the model with the Don Budge backhand. Harry Hopman is the coach. Roger Federer is the Living Proof. I have connected the dots from the 1920's to the present day.

I trotted out this paradigm almost as soon as I entered the fray here on this forum and there was quite a bit resistance from some participants. But fortunately Roger Federer has bailed me out by switching equipment and dominating the game once more at this late stage in his career. Seemingly validating my theories and ideas. I am not saying that playing the modern game typically with the strong gripped forehand (I think your son's grip is too strong) and two handed backhand is not a viable option. Sure it is but you will be condemned to be like all of the rest. Nothing seems more stupid to me than a big guy trying to run around behind the baseline like a Labrador Retriever on steroids. Play a game that the competition is unfamiliar with...which happens to be the game Roger Federer plays.

It was interesting to hear what he had to say about the competition nowadays compared to when he started playing professionally. I wrote a bit about it in the thread called "Hopman Cup: Roger Federer vs. Stefanos Tsitsipas". He talked about playing big guys nowadays that play strictly from the baseline as opposed to when he first started playing they were serve and volleyers. He's eating them up at the ripe old age of 37. They are all standard issue these days...each trying to outdo each other at doing precisely the same thing.

Tennis is an artistic game. At least it used to be. The most beautiful flourishing strokes are the serve and the one handed backhand. See how Federer uses that backhand in sword like fashion to carve up his opponents. He uses guile, patience and power (spin, speed and placement) to disrupt their games. He gives them balls that they don't want to play instead of the monotonous back and forth that they are all doing.

Get your son to start moving forwards...and backwards. He should take a shine to this being a basketball player. I was a very good basketball player when I was younger. I quit the tennis team my first year in college to play basketball. I used to play a lot of ball in the gym and my coach told me that once the season started I had to make a choice...unfortunately maybe or maybe not I chose to play ball. I used to go down to the hood and run with the guys. Tennis was great for my athletic skills and basketball may have been even better. Offence and defence. Attack and defence. Seizing the initiative. I think I would encourage him to play competitive basketball for a couple of years. Take some time away from tennis. It makes you hungry.

If you are the trainer with your son...start a rally with him on the baseline and on the first ball he must move forwards to play the next ball and then he must keep going all the way to the net. Once he is at the net he has to start moving backwards and get behind the baseline where he starts the process on the very first or second ball going forwards again. No breaks. Keep the ball going. The repetitions will tire him in fifteen minutes where it would take hours of the sort of hitting you do in the video. You will find that this is the way to condition your athlete. Once he learns how to play going forwards you have an attacking player who can also play uncanny defence from going backwards. With this sort of drill you are playing groundstrokes, approach shots and volleys going forwards and backwards. Throw in lobs once he gets to the net. Punish him physically. Get him to like it. Relish it.

With his size you want to start developing a service motion that will carry him towards the net. Not the serve and retreat that the guys are playing now. Teach him serve and volley. Serve with combinations of spin, speed and placement. Like a baseball pitcher. See if it suits him. Play a lot of good doubles...make him follow all of his serves to the net.

I could go on and on and I have done just that on this forum. Take a look at my profile and all of my posts. I haven't wavered in my belief that there are different ways to play this game but the most effective is something akin to the way that Federer plays. I firmly believe that the game has been so dumbed down and slowed physically down with the engineering of the court surfaces that something is about to change. When they do speed up the surfaces even just incrementally it creates a real havoc with the players except for you know who...Roger Federer. He mops up under these conditions.

Funny that you mention Jo-Wilfred Tsonga. I was watching him the other day playing against Daniil Medvedev...at 3-3 in the first set Tsonga played an unbelievable one hand pass on a net approaching Medvedev. The commentators were incredulous. It wasn't the first time that I had seen Tsonga hit a one hander. With his strength I have to ask myself how is it that he is playing two handed and this is hard for me to understand. There are a number of really good one handed backhands on the tour and most notable is Stefanos Tsitsipas who appears to be a hope for the future where it looked for the longest time that the ATP was betting the house on Alexander Zverev.

He's your son and you will do what you want. I hope that you will do what is best. It is a game for a lifetime and it certainly has been that for me. Not just as a player but as a teacher and now a writer. Tennis used to be an intellectual game. It would be sad to limit the possibilities and limit his growth...as a player and a person. You see these players like Tsonga, Raonic, Isner, Berdych and on and on and on....I wonder if they might have been better off playing one handed. Juan Martin Del Potro comes to mind. They all play alike. Cookie cutter tennis.

One handed not just for the attacking game. But for defence as well. He already has the patience to play the baseline. That's great. Don't ever lose that either. But it is one handed for the whole entire game. The big picture. Then you can start to talk specifically about the forehand. Which incidentally I advocate the more classic classic or neutral stance on any ball that you can get set up thusly for. I would modify his grip so transitioning to the net and middle of the court wouldn't be such a shock. Of course much of the time shots are played open or semi open as Federer most certainly does but fundamentally you start with the fundamentals. After all...how many volleys are hit with open stances. By the way...I start working on a player at the net and move them back. I work on their volleys and footwork and them move them back behind the service line to play balls from this area. Finally they get behind the baseline and hopefully they show some initiative to move forwards at the appropriate opportunity.

A couple of ideas...a dissenting view perhaps. Good sound fundamental ideas. Thanks for your thoughtful replay.

[postpre]

What do I think? It's a forehand. Plus or minus. Put it in the fire and see what happens. What evolves.

But here's what I really think. He's fourteen...not a boy but not quite a man. But soon. So drop the two handed backhand. These kids use that two hand backhand like a pacifier. A teddy bear. That little blankey kids cling to. Be a man about it. Once that hand is off the racquet then we look at the forehand again.

I don't care for the footwork. Nothing about his movement suggests to me that he has any inkling to move forwards. It's all passive in the sense that he is going to scurry around the baseline and play tit for tat. Look at Roger Federer. He is 37 years old and he is the only player on the tour that seems to have any idea that there is a whole another court to be played...inside the service line. On both sides of the court.

Look at how cleverly he used the forecourt against Tsitsipas and Zverev in the last couple of days. His forecourt and the opponents.

In order to discuss this forehand we need to see the serve too. Forehand discussion make no sense whatsoever without seeing what the rest of the game is doing. This forehand is standard issue. It could be a Djokovic, a Nadal or even a Federer. So what? The thing has to be addressed as a whole. You are going to have to start with the backhand. Lose the two hander and man up. Net play. Approach play. Serve and volley. Otherwise the kid is doomed to be what thousands and thousands of tennis players in this era are doomed to. A lifetime of baseline boring rallies.

What about the future? The ITF or the ATP or whoever is running this thing is going to have to start adapting here. The game is so dumbed down and ridiculously boring that anyone with any intelligence will anticipate the next move by the braintrust...they will have to speed it up. Get ahead of the curve. Anticipate. Just as you would get that early start on the ball.

It's a fine forehand. Just put him in as many tournaments as he can handle. Then give him some time off and play some basketball. Mix it up. He's just fourteen. Develop his athleticism. I'm taking a page out of hockeyscout's book here.

I like your perspective, and that you speak your mind :-). I've been pushing for my son to look for opportunities to come in and develop his forecourt and net game. You are right in that he doesn't do this or practice this enough. But I see a ton of potential with him in this regard. He probably sees himself more like Djokovic (his idol), but I see him more like Federer. I think he has the power potential, creativity, and finesse to pull it off pretty well, if he dedicates to this game style. He has a great backhand slice for his age, and uses it a lot even in competition. His backhand volley is also natural. He could have been a one hander, no doubt. He toys around with it in practice and always enjoys it. But he has just recently turned the corner with the two hander, and has become very solid. He has avoided some of the double handed pitfalls of a Raonic, Isner, or Roddick, in developing the stroke. I don't know, maybe he could be a Tsonga and be able to use both options! Would you switch to a one hander to accommodate an attacking game, merely? Would you see a need to change if the two hander is developing well?

[postpre]

Your son is taking his left arm further than Nadal, and higher. It definitely needs to release a tad earlier which in turn will help him be able to achieve a harder stretch across the body. It will work. Your kid has super potential here. I think John has a great point about the racket face. Closing it a couple of degrees will help.

I love Nadal's forehand. I am not sure it is the best model out there for kids to emulate because it has factors that are risky and difficult to copy. Roger's is the best model for me.

You are right about how the harder stretch will be easier if he releases his left arm a tad earlier. I am not as clear as I'd like to be on what you and John are suggesting about closing the racket face a few degrees. I want to make sure that I'm on point here. Could you provide a further clarification or clip that can help me understand?

Also, my son does move pretty well for his size. He is not super explosive yet, but he's pretty quick. He is just over 6ft tall now (with lots of growth left). He is very coordinated with his feet and hands (from lots of basketball and drills we've done from an early age).

[stotty]

Thanks, Stotty. I will get some clips in normal speed/point play situations. I shot these in slo mo to send to a coach in our section (he requested slo mo to look at technique). I agree things get more complicated when under duress. His greatest improvement over the last year or so is his ability to deal much better with pressure.

Your son is taking his left arm further than Nadal, and higher. It definitely needs to release a tad earlier which in turn will help him be able to achieve a harder stretch across the body. It will work. Your kid has super potential here. I think John has a great point about the racket face. Closing it a couple of degrees will help.

I love Nadal's forehand. I am not sure it is the best model out there for kids to emulate because it has factors that are risky and difficult to copy. Roger's is the best model for me.

[don_budge]

Take a look at my son's forehand. He's a young 14, wants to be great. Let me know what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpqU-nec9qM

What do I think? It's a forehand. Plus or minus. Put it in the fire and see what happens. What evolves.

But here's what I really think. He's fourteen...not a boy but not quite a man. But soon. So drop the two handed backhand. These kids use that two hand backhand like a pacifier. A teddy bear. That little blankey kids cling to. Be a man about it. Once that hand is off the racquet then we look at the forehand again.

I don't care for the footwork. Nothing about his movement suggests to me that he has any inkling to move forwards. It's all passive in the sense that he is going to scurry around the baseline and play tit for tat. Look at Roger Federer. He is 37 years old and he is the only player on the tour that seems to have any idea that there is a whole another court to be played...inside the service line. On both sides of the court.

Look at how cleverly he used the forecourt against Tsitsipas and Zverev in the last couple of days. His forecourt and the opponents.

In order to discuss this forehand we need to see the serve too. Forehand discussion make no sense whatsoever without seeing what the rest of the game is doing. This forehand is standard issue. It could be a Djokovic, a Nadal or even a Federer. So what? The thing has to be addressed as a whole. You are going to have to start with the backhand. Lose the two hander and man up. Net play. Approach play. Serve and volley. Otherwise the kid is doomed to be what thousands and thousands of tennis players in this era are doomed to. A lifetime of baseline boring rallies.

What about the future? The ITF or the ATP or whoever is running this thing is going to have to start adapting here. The game is so dumbed down and ridiculously boring that anyone with any intelligence will anticipate the next move by the braintrust...they will have to speed it up. Get ahead of the curve. Anticipate. Just as you would get that early start on the ball.

It's a fine forehand. Just put him in as many tournaments as he can handle. Then give him some time off and play some basketball. Mix it up. He's just fourteen. Develop his athleticism. I'm taking a page out of hockeyscout's book here.

[postpre]

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...r%20500fps.mp4

Check out this Nadal clip. On his take back/unit turn (when off arm is on throat), my son tends to angle his racquet similar to Nadal (angled more facing his head instead of away from his head like Fed). Further, after Nadal's drop of the racquet, he begins his forward swing pull with his hitting hand around his left hip (and not really to the outside of his body), though his racquet head generally does stay to the outside of his hand (which helps generate his massive flip), which I think is key (unlike Murray, for instance). Nadal holds the throat with his off arm pretty long, much longer than he did earlier in his career, which is interesting. Any thoughts? Nadal's off arm is definitely is strong, which I will work on with my son.