HOW TO HIT Heavy Ball

[lukman41985]

Kevin,

Care to expand on that concept of "spiralspin"? I haven't read the book but am curious about what you're talking about.

Thanks in advance.

[mntlblok]

My take on "spiralspin"

Kevin,

Care to expand on that concept of "spiralspin"? I haven't read the book but am curious about what you're talking about.

Thanks in advance.

Topspin and under spin have the ball spinning about a horizontal axis that runs parallel to the baseline. Side spin has the ball spinning about the vertical axis, and is responsible for any left/right curve of the ball on its flight across the net. It apparently has nothing to do with any sideways "kick" after the ball hits the ground, though.

"Spiralspin", as they call it, has the ball spinning around a horizontal axis that runs perpendicular to the baseline. I think they said they called it that (they coined the term) because it is basically the spin that a thrown football has (the book is loaned out for now). When the ball lands with this type of spin on it, it kicks to the side.

I had always found it curious that both my kick and slice serves curved right to left in the air, but one "kicked" to the right, and the other bounced to the left. I still don't know whether the slice has any "kick" to the left, or whether it is just a continuation of the curved path that it had taken in the air. It's difficult to see how one could impart much "spiralspin" in that direction with a slice serve motion, but I haven't altogether ruled it out in my own mind. I tried emailing an author about it but the New Zealand (I think) university email address that I found on line may not have been current. Another possibility is that I have such a reputation as a crank that it was simply ignored. :-)

So, it seems that my drop shot that both curves right to left while in the air (off the backhand), but also "kicks" severely right to left after it hits the ground, has significant spin on all three axes, and it is *not*, as I had previously assumed, "kicking" to the left due to the side spin component.

At least that is my take on what I read in the book. I *really* liked the book.

Kevin
Savannah

[lukman41985]

I wish I had a visual aid to decpiher what's being described. Thanks for the input.

[GMann]

Heavy Ball/ Future Stars/ Adam Bernstein

John, Thanks for putting up those videos of Future Stars from the Easter Bowl. As another contribution to that vast category of "small world" tennis stories, when I started this post and described some top junior players who could wreak havoc with a high, heavy ball that jumped, I was actually primarily referring to Adam Bernstein in the Boys 16's. In fact, I was planning on trying to videotape his forehand the next chance I got so that I could study it and try to figure the secret that makes his shot so special. What are the chances that you not only filmed Adam soon after my last post, but you also captured his forehand?!

I would love it if John and Jeff counts and anyone else could take a look at the video and give us their thoughts on what elements make this shot so special.

Just to assure you that we aren't wasting our time studying this shot, Adam is a dimunitive kid who can destroy much larger kids with this one shot. It jumps high and away from opponents, screwing up their timing and running away from them. He literally wears opponents out as they grow tired of hitting balls above their head and running after balls that run away from them. It is not unlike Nadal's shot in this respect. If we could all learn how to hit this shot, it would bring up all of our games a whole NTRP rating higher.

A couple of things that I notice are: (1) Like Nadal, Adam uses contrary racket rotation by bringing the racket handle forward before the racket head/face and allowing the racket head/face to bend way back giving him tremendous leverage; (2) He appears to actually straighten his back and almost lean back before contact which seems to create kinetic energy in the chest, shoulder and back that he uses for greater racket speed or torque at contact; (3) He utilizers a huge windshield wiper follow-through across his body to his left after contact; and (4) It appears that he turns his shoulders past sideways and almost forward in front of him before he makes contact.

Anyone else's insights, comments and observations would be greatly appreciated.

[John Yandell]

Glad you like seeing it, and it's a good forehand! I guess my point is still similar that to really understand what is happening with the forehand for a given player, you have to understand a given ball, from a given point on the court, at a given level of play.

One point I tried to make in my article, if you haven't read it, is that when the ball is so far up, as it so frequently is in elite junior tennis, the players have to decide to take it very early, or go underneath on the grip so they can play it high.

To be honest, what Adam is doing, although very technically sound given his grip style, is the same as other players. The elements vary somewhat from player to player, but this is a matter of emphasis not category.

I don't think there is some magic bullet that we can get from looking at one stroke. That, after figuring that out, somehow you are now capable of hitting a completely different kind of ball than ever before. I think that natural ability and technical execution are the factors that, together, determine level. That doesn't mean that you can not develop or copy those elements from a given player, including Adam.

To hit as heavy as god intends you to hit, the turn and the set up are critical. With that grip the shoulders should continue to rotate well past contact. The extension is critical, and the extra spin comes from the wiper, or exaggerating it somewhat.

I'm just not sure it's a shot or grip style that is necessarily appropriate for all levels--it's more of a 5.0 plus on the NTRP scale. I'm not sure wearing other players down with topspin should be the goal in hitting the forehand. It's also a personality and style thing, as well as a question of levels.
That's just my opinion. Others I know may disagree.

[mntlblok]

. It jumps high and away from opponents, screwing up their timing and running away from them.

I'm guessing that he is hitting this shot off *another* high ball. Sometimes on such high balls the counterclockwise arc of the swing has reached the point where the strings are passing the ball "right to left" (in addition to "low to high") and imparting significant side spin that makes the ball curve in the air toward an opponent's backhand. Maybe that's some of what you're seeing. Another member of TennisPlayer and I have been discussing serves hit this way that act like "screwballs". It can be very disconcerting. :-)

I'm pretty sure the opposite of this - on a very low ball - happens when you see a player whip a forehand down the line that starts in the doubles alley and curves into the singles court, as the racket is still traveling significantly left to right when it is still that low in its arc. We saw Roddick pull one of these off on a running forehand at the recent Davis Cup on a ball that we didn't think he was going to get to, and nearly make one like that on match point.

On the subject of heavy balls, I watched several days worth of matches this week at the Atlanta Senior Invitational. I noticed that one of the players had rows of "string savers" on his strings, alternating with rows *without* them. As it seemed unlikely that this would be done in an effort to "save strings", I asked him after the match if that was designed to aid in applying spin to the ball. He said that was, indeed, the purpose, and that Pete Sampras had taught it to him. I recall seeing Sampras pull one of those applicators out of his pocket and apply more of them during matches on TV. I remembered thinking that that seemed a bit odd for somebody who could afford as many string jobs as he wanted and had a whole bag full of rackets with him. This player told me that Federer does the same thing. I'd never heard of it. Reckon that might have had anything to do with Sampras's "heavy ball"?

This fellow also used extreme grips and said his rackets were strung at 100 pounds. He was also using an off-brand racket. . . He *did* manage to get a *lot* of spin on the ball.

Coincidentally, I see that this month's Tennis magazine has a picture of the old "Spaghetti Racket" string job that Nastasi had used against Vilas way back when.

Kevin
Savannah

[GMann]

[QUOTE=.

I'm just not sure it's a shot or grip style that is necessarily appropriate for all levels--it's more of a 5.0 plus on the NTRP scale. [/QUOTE]

Thanks for your comments and observations, John. What grip do you think he's using? Semi-western, full Western?

[John Yandell]

Probably about a 4 / 4 1/2. Extreme semi-western.

[jeffreycounts]

Hey John,

I keep getting this error when I try to upload a picture:

Warning: move_uploaded_file(/var/www/yourstrokes/be597c6e628b3be2c09e35a6ca7f232d): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /includes/functions_file.php on line 274

Any tips on how to upload a picture to this thread? I just wanted to show one or two frames from Adam's forehand.

Thanks!

Jeff

[John Yandell]

Huh. Email me the jpegs and I'll try.

[John Yandell]

Jeff, Here it is. Try from your end again ok?

[John Yandell]

Here's a video clip too. See if you can open it. I get a Dreamweaver file type when I try to save it locally--doesn't allow me to save it as QT.

[jeffreycounts]

What I find remarkable about Adam's forehand in this clip is how far out in front he meets the ball with the double bend fully intact. You see the same thing with Djokovic.

In order to meet the ball like this, you have to lift the entire double bend structure upwards as you come inside out.

I see this as really maximizing leverage and mass, which I personally think has a lot to do with the "heavy ball".

When I first started comparing top hitters to lower level hitters many years ago, I quickly saw that on contact things looked very different. The top hitters always had a hitting structure behind the ball while lower level hitters didn't. I was very surprised by this at first.

For anyone interested, I encourage you to do a little experiment. Get your arm and racket in the contact position like Djokovic and Adam. Double bend intact, well in front of the body. To get to that position, you really can't "swing" in any traditional sense. You have to rotate. You have to lift. Any other kind of motion will break down the hitting structure and will cause things to come across the body way too soon.

[jeffreycounts]

One more pic. Same thing going on. When you watch these players on TV or live, your eyes cannot see this hitting structure so firmly established behind the ball. But it's always there for these big hitters.

[john6652001]

Jeff-- thanks for you current article on the double bend. You mention the importance of moving the racket to the ball "inside out", and that this is the result of lifting the double bend. To get the "inside out" movement to the ball ( where the racket moves almost directly to the right at the start of the forward swing-- for a right hander, do you make a deliberate swing out in that direction (ie to the right), or is it truly just a straight lift ( like rolling/lifting bowling a ball straight), and the movement of the racket to the right is just a natural result of that straight up lift.

I hope the question makes sense. I guess the question could be summarized as : is the inside out movement of the racket just a natural result of lifting the double bend, or do you make a deliberate inside out movement with your arm as you start the swing.

Thanks

One more pic. Same thing going on. When you watch these players on TV or live, your eyes cannot see this hitting structure so firmly established behind the ball. But it's always there for these big hitters.