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Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

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  • Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

    Whilst working on serve I've noticed something that may be worthy of discussion. In a nutshell, if you are trying to get decent shoulder rotation (with line of shoulders rotating to near parallel with baseline), then it becomes easier if you delay the racket coming up into the trophy position. I find that it's best to rotate the shoulders first and only then start to bring the racket up. I have found that if I attempt both motions together, then video shows that my shoulders don't rotate nearly as much as I'm intending. I went and checked the videos of Pete Sampras and John McEnroe, both with extreme shoulder rotation, and neither bring the racket up until shoulder rotation is finished (roughly).
    Last edited by glacierguy; 08-17-2019, 02:31 AM.

  • #2
    Guess it's not worthy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Definitely worthy!

      It's kind of tangential to your point but if you look at the video and watch Rafa and Henin who both had abbreviated rhythms, you will see coiling as the racket comes up. I remember seeing a video long ago with later coiling but cannot seem to find it.

      Sampras and McEnroe have very peculiar serves. Sampras in particular has a VERY flexible shoulder and trying to serve like him might not be the best model.

      I think the timing of coiling should be practiced without a serve. Try throwing a racket really high or alternate throwing a tennis ball over the net and serving in as close succession as possible.

      Then you will naturally develop a coiling because there is no way to throw something high without coiling.

      Then use that seem feeling in your serve so that it feels natural.

      johnyandell (correct me if I am wrong, please) feels that Federer might be the best model for servers (maybe for every stroke except of course the two handed backhand).

      He is less extreme in his technique.

      So I would learn to coil naturally by borrowing from your throwing motion which should be the most natural for you. Then, on the court, alternate naturally throwing with serving.

      Your body most likely knows how to best toss a ball over the net.

      The trick is coordinating it with the racket and contact.

      Videos tend to get more attention. So if you want a better response you could try posting a video and then all the real tennis pros in this forum might venture to offer their opinion.

      Hopefully, I am not being too simplistic here. You might be a 6.0 player who is trying to add 5 mph to a 115 mph serve.

      But those are my two cents.

      https://youtu.be/IyR7NNeXiJc

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Arturo, I watched Rafa and Henin videos, and yes, they're definitely rotating as racket comes up from shoulder, but neither break the elbow until shoulders have reached full rotation. I think that's my observation, that in my own action, once I start breaking the elbow my shoulders stop rotating even if in my head I'm telling them to rotate. And then when I check the video of pros, it's clearly something that everyone has already worked out! It just becomes more obvious if you're aiming for a lot of rotation (back facing opponent). Once I've got this sorted out, I'll definitely post a video .

        Comment


        • #5
          I haven't forgotten my promise to post video.... Not ready yet, but soon! Trunk rotation sorted, and now totally relaxed arm. Have Pocket Radar, and speeds are getting interesting. Have been serving for an hour, three times a week, and paying attention to the muscle memory thread.

          And BTW, respect to Andy Murray for his performance at China Open.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
            I haven't forgotten my promise to post video.... Not ready yet, but soon! Trunk rotation sorted, and now totally relaxed arm. Have Pocket Radar, and speeds are getting interesting. Have been serving for an hour, three times a week, and paying attention to the muscle memory thread.

            And BTW, respect to Andy Murray for his performance at China Open.
            It sounds like you have recovered from the shoulder issue. Was it an "impinged" shoulder or did you get a diagnosis? I have/had an impinged shoulder and it seems to be somewhat resolving itself. I plan on "entering" a gym this winter for a total body makeover. Should be interesting as I have never really pursued the gym angle. I would surely like to see an update on your video.

            Andy Murray is to be commended for his comeback effort. He is certainly making inroads. I am curious as to what the whole story has been behind his rehab. Including meds. This is a great source of curiosity for me...meds. Andy is certainly good for the tour. The "Big Three" are rarely at the same tournament at the same time and the typical draws are so watered down with "mediocre" talent the game is suffering for it. When the "Big Four" were all present and accounted for at least there was this angle of interest.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by don_budge View Post

              It sounds like you have recovered from the shoulder issue. Was it an "impinged" shoulder or did you get a diagnosis? I have/had an impinged shoulder and it seems to be somewhat resolving itself. I plan on "entering" a gym this winter for a total body makeover. Should be interesting as I have never really pursued the gym angle. I would surely like to see an update on your video.
              I'd pulled my pec. major, but physio. diagnosed nothing really serious and gave me advice on shoulder stability and chest strengthening exercises. Given that I was already doing core stability exercises, I am not kidding when I say that I spend only slightly more time on court compared with time in the gym. As for the serve, I'm hopeful that I have taken that slightly counter-intuitive step of relaxing more to first, generate more racket head speed, and second, to reduce chance of injury. Next time I have serve buddy with me, I shall video....

              To continue dual theme, I was really disappointed that Andy Murray failed twice to serve out the match against Fognini, but what a comeback. He must regret rising to the bait of Fognini's gamesmanship. I'm a Brit and live in Scotland, but I'd never really warmed to Andy Murray, until now.

              Comment


              • #8
                FYI for those of you like me who are inspired by Murray’s incredible comeback and are facing hip surgery. Murray had hip resurfacing. I wanted hip resurfacing, but I had to consult with 4 surgeons before finding one willing to truthfully explain to me how to weigh the risk/benefits/ in resurfacing versus total hip replacement. Many docs in U.S. won’t do resurfacing anymore unless you pay cash. I am currently recovering from a total hip replacement.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
                  Given that I was already doing core stability exercises...
                  Really curious about this comment glacierguy. Give me an idea about your motivation to start this program and an explanation about the process. How old and what condition were you in when you began this? How long have you been at it and what about the results so far? Thank you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Dear don_budge, I am 56 years old and tickled that you are interested in my history and routine. First off I am attaching here my set of core exercises... BackExercises.doc

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That seemed to work, so here we go. My potted history is as follows. I played a lot of tennis from before I can really remember (8?) until I was about 21. Nothing too stellar, UK county standard (but a good county, Warwickshire) and university 1st team, until I had a bad tear in my pec. major whilst serving on a cold winter morning. I never really recovered from that and then my working life started and I didn't play for 30 years or so. My motivation for picking up a racket again was when we moved town for my two children's secondary (high school) education, and I found myself next to some tennis courts and thought that I should really show them how to hit a ball. So although that was my motivation, I now find that my old addiction has kicked in, and I am totally obsessed with tennis again.

                      During my 30 year hiatus from tennis I took up rowing, which was not so good for my back. To the extent that by age 50 I was incapacitated about twice a year by back pain, which would last a couple of weeks before resolving itself. I never had the cause diagnosed, but suspected what used to be called "slipped disk". Anyhow, when I restarted tennis this back weakness was hampering my progress. Fortunately I have a sister who is not only a serious sportswoman, but a retired vet who retrained as a physiotherapist for her oxymoronic "retirement job". It was she who recommended the set of core exercises attached above. Now, if you have a look at that set of exercises, or try them, you will see that it takes about 60-80 minutes and is quite tough. It took me about 6 weeks to be able to complete the full set. Well, you might also notice that the title says "early phase" - this is the easy set! There are mid-phase and late-phase too which are entirely mental, designed for olympians. I stick to early-phase and have been doing them at least twice a week for 18 months now. The results are two fillets of beef alongside my lower spine, pretty strong stomach muscles and no recurrence of back pain for the last 12 months (touchwood).

                      As for my condition when I started my comeback, I was fit, but in a farmer's way - I could do heavy work for long hours, like a donkey. I kept cows and did a lot of agricultural work, like fencing. But when I started those core exercises I found serious weaknesses, for example, I could not do a side plank to save my life. So, I keep going, and have added shoulder and chest exercises now I'm trying to recover my serve. Although I don't really think it is my old serve any more - it's a hybrid combining some of my old skills with some of the gems picked up from reading articles on this site. It's over the ton now, and I'm aiming to stop pushing at 110, if something doesn't bust first.

                      Thanks for your interest.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
                        Dear don_budge, I am 56 years old and tickled that you are interested in my history and routine. First off I am attaching here my set of core exercises... [ATTACH]n82674[/ATTACH]
                        Snap, I am a 56-year-old from Essex. Good on you, glacierguy. Essex finished 2nd in group 1 county week for the third successive year. Just can't quite nail the top spot. I go to Eastbourne most years to lend support. I'll just have to cheer even harder next year.
                        Stotty

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
                          Dear don_budge, I am 56 years old and tickled that you are interested in my history and routine. First off I am attaching here my set of core exercises... [ATTACH]n82674[/ATTACH]
                          Originally posted by glacierguy View Post
                          That seemed to work, so here we go. My potted history is as follows. I played a lot of tennis from before I can really remember (8?) until I was about 21. Nothing too stellar, UK county standard (but a good county, Warwickshire) and university 1st team, until I had a bad tear in my pec. major whilst serving on a cold winter morning. I never really recovered from that and then my working life started and I didn't play for 30 years or so. My motivation for picking up a racket again was when we moved town for my two children's secondary (high school) education, and I found myself next to some tennis courts and thought that I should really show them how to hit a ball. So although that was my motivation, I now find that my old addiction has kicked in, and I am totally obsessed with tennis again.

                          During my 30 year hiatus from tennis I took up rowing, which was not so good for my back. To the extent that by age 50 I was incapacitated about twice a year by back pain, which would last a couple of weeks before resolving itself. I never had the cause diagnosed, but suspected what used to be called "slipped disk". Anyhow, when I restarted tennis this back weakness was hampering my progress. Fortunately I have a sister who is not only a serious sportswoman, but a retired vet who retrained as a physiotherapist for her oxymoronic "retirement job". It was she who recommended the set of core exercises attached above. Now, if you have a look at that set of exercises, or try them, you will see that it takes about 60-80 minutes and is quite tough. It took me about 6 weeks to be able to complete the full set. Well, you might also notice that the title says "early phase" - this is the easy set! There are mid-phase and late-phase too which are entirely mental, designed for olympians. I stick to early-phase and have been doing them at least twice a week for 18 months now. The results are two fillets of beef alongside my lower spine, pretty strong stomach muscles and no recurrence of back pain for the last 12 months (touchwood).

                          As for my condition when I started my comeback, I was fit, but in a farmer's way - I could do heavy work for long hours, like a donkey. I kept cows and did a lot of agricultural work, like fencing. But when I started those core exercises I found serious weaknesses, for example, I could not do a side plank to save my life. So, I keep going, and have added shoulder and chest exercises now I'm trying to recover my serve. Although I don't really think it is my old serve any more - it's a hybrid combining some of my old skills with some of the gems picked up from reading articles on this site. It's over the ton now, and I'm aiming to stop pushing at 110, if something doesn't bust first.

                          Thanks for your interest.
                          Thank YOU glacierguy. I have to say that of all of my 5,338 (now 5,339) posts this may be the best reply I have ever received. I really would like to express my appreciation. Not only is your "story" rather enlightening it is inspiring. The report on the actual exercises was equally important to me. The whole thing suits me in my story that it personally gives me further motivation to "double down" on my extraordinary efforts to resurrect my golf game and to not only return to my prior form but to smash that barrier. At my age! Thank you very, very much.

                          It's so important to seek others experiences and opinions when trying to embark on a journey of your own. In my case I am going to enter the gym this winter with the sole express purpose to improve the condition of my body so that I can perform to my utmost potential. I have never used a gym consistently before and I find the prospect a little daunting...just a tad scary. Can I do this I ask myself? Am I too old? The doubts lurking just beneath the surface of my unbridled passion to go for the "impossible dream". I swear I just should have called myself don_quixote. I suppose that "Quixotic" nature is in all of us. We pursue our dreams. Fantasies.

                          But you have taken a dream and made it real and I commend you Sir. That takes real balls to take the first step and follow through. I like the "fit in a farmer's way" analogy. Long hours like a donkey. In my case "like a horse". We have horses here in Sweden. Check me out here. What the heck...friend me if you want. stroke did.

                          https://www.facebook.com/don.budge.313

                          But to be honest most of my work these days is done on the golf course. Up to three to four hours a day...every single day weather permitting. I figure by doing to sort of routine that you have done that it will enable me to work even harder. I told a guy the other day on the course...he noted the improvement in my game over the course of the summer...I said, "I outwork other people, that is what I do." I am sure the members at the club are asking themselves what is that crazy American think he's doing? Well I intend to show them.

                          Thanks again glacierguy. You can be certain that if you post any serve or any other stroke that I will be dead earnest in giving whatever advice I can. Nobody knows more about the service motion than I do. After all...have you ever heard anybody analyse the serve as an upside down golf swing. Instead of teeing it on the ground...we tee it up in the air. Of course getting that ball properly teed is half of the battle. Thanks again...Brother!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Don, I sent you a private message about core and golf stuff. Would like your thoughts,

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Excellent doctorhi. Thanks for your thoughts and taking an interest. You validate the mission that I have accepted. Sorry to hear about your hip and I think that the replacement is going to work out good for you.

                              I have an appointment in three days with a personal trainer and I can't tell you how excited I am. Thanks again and keep swinging! Using everything I can to get inspired. glacierguy did me a super solid.

                              Here's a great drill...can you see any tennis parallels here. This drill finally kicked in on my swing today. It fundamentally changed things for me. It was a piece of the puzzle that I have been looking for for a long, long time. You can see how a solid core could be a great asset in a move like this.


                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1velb0EqU

                              Comment

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