Tour Strokes: Andrei Rublev Serve

[johnyandell]

And agreed. If they just absolutely can't get off pinpoint make them bring the back foot up and touch the front so it doesn't go around the corner...

[stotty]

Good point. I actually had my daughter serve starting on the back foot entirely, toss the ball, and then hit the serve while landing on the front foot. It is an exaggerated drill but every serve went in an all the serves had more spin on them.

Then I had her serve normally.

Second drill was to have her "twist" as she calls it more. Have her turn her shoulders and torso a little bit more away from the court during the windup.

Between the twist and the weight back a bit more before moving forward her serve had more zip and spin. It was like magic and she is already in a platform stance.

I had my own tragedy with the pinpoint firmly in mind. That is why I taught all my kids platform (two girls and one boy). The timing and coordination is already difficult without adding more moving parts. You would think that someone without any pro experience teaching his kids could not possibly know better than real pros. It boggles the mind to see pros with technical problems.

It reminds me of Tom Byer's "Soccer for Everyone" where he states that a lot of pros don't know the fundamentals.

Just don't like pinpoint. You are wise to teach your kids platform. The trouble with children and pinpoint is their rear foot ends up all over the place. Most kids have inaccurate ball tosses, which they hit anyway, and their rear foot ends up in different places each time due to adjustments they must make to strike the ball. Nightmare. The other issue is the timing of when during the action they slide the rear foot to the back foot...quite a few get this wrong. Save yourself all this headache and just opt for platform is my advice...all day long.

[arturohernandez]

Good article. I like the choice of solutions John lays down for Rublev.

You come across all sorts of stuff like this with junior tournament level players. In my experience when pinpoint goes wrong it's tricky to put right. I always opt for the platform solution because if you opt to adjust the pinpoint stance the player's muscle memory will often overrides even your best efforts. Platform is a more radical change and puts a better block on muscle memory. It's a better stance anyway because less can go wrong with it.

You'd think a lot of tour players could have been working on their serves during the lockdown. In those three months Rublev and Zverev could have resolved their serving problems.

Biggest thing I ever learnt on this website was from Ben Kibler...driving up using the rear foot...what a nugget. If a 57 year old with an arthritic knee (caused by lateral pinpoint; all weight borne by the left leg because the right leg is merely a stabiliser) can switch to a platform stance and learn to drive up with the rear foot, then surely Zverev and Rublev, who have far greater ability then I have, can too.

Good point. I actually had my daughter serve starting on the back foot entirely, toss the ball, and then hit the serve while landing on the front foot. It is an exaggerated drill but every serve went in an all the serves had more spin on them.

Then I had her serve normally.

Second drill was to have her "twist" as she calls it more. Have her turn her shoulders and torso a little bit more away from the court during the windup.

Between the twist and the weight back a bit more before moving forward her serve had more zip and spin. It was like magic and she is already in a platform stance.

I had my own tragedy with the pinpoint firmly in mind. That is why I taught all my kids platform (two girls and one boy). The timing and coordination is already difficult without adding more moving parts. You would think that someone without any pro experience teaching his kids could not possibly know better than real pros. It boggles the mind to see pros with technical problems.

It reminds me of Tom Byer's "Soccer for Everyone" where he states that a lot of pros don't know the fundamentals.

[stotty]

Good article. I like the choice of solutions John lays down for Rublev.

You come across all sorts of stuff like this with junior tournament level players. In my experience when pinpoint goes wrong it's tricky to put right. I always opt for the platform solution because if you opt to adjust the pinpoint stance the player's muscle memory will often overrides even your best efforts. Platform is a more radical change and puts a better block on muscle memory. It's a better stance anyway because less can go wrong with it.

You'd think a lot of tour players could have been working on their serves during the lockdown. In those three months Rublev and Zverev could have resolved their serving problems.

Biggest thing I ever learnt on this website was from Ben Kibler...driving up using the rear foot...what a nugget. If a 57 year old with an arthritic knee (caused by lateral pinpoint; all weight borne by the left leg because the right leg is merely a stabiliser) can switch to a platform stance and learn to drive up with the rear foot, then surely Zverev and Rublev, who have far greater ability then I have, can too.

[johnyandell]

Well, even in Brian's model the rotation starts before contact. I think it's less a question of trying to understand the why and more of how. Since my own work is empirical but not quantitative I just base things on model positions...Not sure that answers your question... You might try emailing Brian and see what he says. Thanks for all the great words!!

[yandell17]

Dear John,

Many thanks for your further explanation. First, I have been a devoted reader of yours going back to the Lendl McEnroe VHS, and your Visual Tennis book and tapes. I try to incorporate all you say. Thanks! You say it is an indication of what is happening on the way up bigtime. I can understand that.

But Dr. Gordon said the ISR should come into play "AFTER the arm is fully elevated and the elbow fully extended (in a properly executed motion). Assuming adequate angle between the (straight) arm and racquet ISR will cause the racquet head to move forward." That is the precise point which is eluding me and if Dr. Gordon is saying it and you are saying it then I take it as gospel that I am unable to understand something so fundamental. Perhaps there are others at this site similarly situated who would profit immensely if I could visualize what you are both saying. I think I know what to do, ie, high five at contact, try to hit with edge until very last moment, it may be natural, but I cannot understand how this in itself provides FORWARD movement after elbow fully extended and arm full elevated as I try to explain in my prior questions. Thanks for any further helpfulness.

[johnyandell]

It's an indication that it was happening big time on the way up.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

Your video and the NY Times video based on your work brought me further along, but I still don't understand how the rotation of ISR at the end gives FORWARD speed much less any movement forward even to the racket even considering the angle of attack. I will keep studying the two videos you provided. I don't doubt for the moment what you are saying, and will practice your verbal descriptions, but I just can not visualize the physics of how ISR can be the engine of forward movement of the racket. You have been most gracious with your time and well known expertise.

[BrianGordon]

Try this - the outside to inside (mentioned) is ESR to ISR - high five is the feel analogy for ISR: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyti...ket-speed.html. You could also give this a shot: https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...n_upper_swing/. Sorry, this is all I got.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

I am sorry, I am still not getting it. Thanks for your patience. I understand that at the end of the hit that the angle of the racket is hitting slightly down while a powerful swing path is hitting up. I could understand that if the ball is on the left quadrant of the racket face that a continuous counter-clockwise motion of the racket face possibly causes the tip of the racket to go forward or down, but I am just guessing. I doubt that is it. This is a powerful now I understand FORWARD force accounting for 40% of the power when done correctly, and yet I cannot understand what is happening. Thanks for your patience. Is what you are saying true for the kick, topspin, flat, and slice? Does it matter what kind of serve. I understand "feel" analogies like give a "high five" to the back of the ball at contact or throw a ball to home from center field (Jack Groppel). I now understand I must for a righty hit the ball with the racket angled left (but still right of the shoulder?) as in the Fed photo you kindly supplied, but I am still missing the aha. I will try to do it on faith, but if I could understand it, it would help me (and others) a lot.

[BrianGordon]

I think you're missing the angle between the arm and the racquet as the shoulder is internally rotated - here is Fed in a back view at contact - with the angle between the racquet and arm I hope it is clear how ISR will make the racquet move forward.

[yandell17]

Dear Brian,

Thanks for your helpful reply. I know I am in the best hands. I now understand a new plane I should think of this in, but I am still not getting it. Forgive me. Let's assume the hand is freeze framed right before the hit and ISR hasn't happened yet. The racket is still on edge. Well, if the racket instantly spun at 90 degrees before the hit via ISR indeed that would have no effect on the speed of the racket going forward. Indeed, the racket edge is more forward than the flat surface of the racket before ISR. So going from edge to flat surface does not make the racket go forward. Am I right? What am I missing?

However, if you are telling me that for the four milliseconds that the surface of the racket is on the ball the continual rotation inherent in ISR provides a forward vector I might be able to understand that verbally but not picture that yet in my mind's eye. I have studied your amazing articles re ISR but sorry it did not register how pace from forward motion could result from a rotational input. Hopefully I can get there now. Am I closer? Have you ever provided a diagram of ISR. I assume ISR is not an arm wrestle motion. I see a forward vector in rotating the arm down while arm wrestling. I am still in the dark on ISR but now understand it is right before the hit with an extended arm. I am obviously ISR challenged. Help me go forward, pun intended. Thanks.

[BrianGordon]

Rained out today - rare time to surf. ISR is a primary contributor to the FORWARD speed of the racquet head in the final instants prior to contact. It occurs after the arm is fully elevated and the elbow fully extended (in a properly executed motion). Assuming adequate angle between the (straight) arm and racquet ISR will cause the racquet head to move forward.

[yandell17]

To John Yandell and all other Helpful Serve Commentators--Missing the fundamentals--Help
John,
You say in the Rublev article that “His internal shoulder rotation and the rotation of his arm and racket in the upward motion [all “ISR–“ ?] so called pronation--is equal to the best servers.” I can see that in the video. You write elsewhere on the site that “The internal rotation of the upper arm in the shoulder joint is the main source of racket speed. When that continues into the follow through it's an indication of maximizing racket speed.” Post 55 12/15/19. Repeatedly Elliott, Gordon, and the site says this ISR accounts for 40 to 50% of the speed of the serve.

My bad: I just don’t understand. If the drop to the hit is a mostly up motion, how does ISR contribute to an up motion? You can demonstrate ISR with arm held horizontally and/or forearm held at 90 degree angle to arm as Stumpfel demonstrates in his article posted at the site: Internal Shoulder Rotation Key to Serving Power. Just rotate thumb down (internal) and thumb up (external) from the upper arm. So? See all Gordon and Elliott articles making similar suggestions. I am completely lost. I am ready for the biggest aha to come back to me. I can’t understand how this rotation contributes to an upward force generating speed. Legs yes. Forearm extension. Sure. I understand how wrist pronation creates bite at the point of hit, but not speed. How does ISR do this. Help all. I am missing a huge point. Ever grateful.

[doctorhl]

Well, maybe now I can get a decent “kick” serve with the platform.