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Forehand help: Internal shoulder rotation

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  • Forehand help: Internal shoulder rotation

    Iíve been trying to add some modern elements to my forehand, mainly a more compact backswing and more spin. I tried emulating the ATP type 3 model Brian Gordon describes but I canít seem to get the level of turbocharged internal shoulder rotation he describes. Itís like my Stretch Shorten Cycle is all stretch, but no shortening after! I took some video of myself and would really appreciate any and all criticism and pointers!
    Last edited by rthodges; 12-04-2019, 02:12 PM.

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      • #4
        rthodges -

        Thanks for the videos, it's always fun to analyse quality strokes. You've got a very nice forehand that has lots of potential. You've done a nice job of making your swing compact, keeping the racquet on the hitting side of the body. A few critiques I would make would be the following:

        1) Late Preparation - Your backswing is not complete until well after the bounce of the ball, I would be fully prepared by the time the ball bounces. I would ideally like to see you hold on with your left hand longer into the backswing, getting a fuller stretch of the upper body.

        2) Right Leg Bend - When setting up to drive forward, the right leg (base leg) doesn't bend much, limiting the kinetic chain potential.

        3) Lack of Separation of Hips/Shoulders/Arm - In your forward swing, your hips and shoulders don't separate much, i.e. they move together, thus limiting the kinetic chain. The separation of body parts is what creates elastic energy by separating the power sections of the kinetic chain. The release of "tension" created by the separations is what creates the "free power". If you fire the hips first, the shoulders will lag back, as the shoulders rotate forward, the arm will lag back creating external shoulder rotation. Greater ESR = greater ISR on the arms forward swing.

        My 2 cents -

        Sean O
        Last edited by seano; 12-04-2019, 03:37 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by seano View Post
          rthodges -

          Thanks for the videos, it's always fun to analyse quality strokes. You've got a very nice forehand that has lots of potential. You've done a nice job of making your swing compact, keeping the racquet on the hitting side of the body. A few critiques I would make would be the following:

          1) Late Preparation - Your backswing is not complete until well after the bounce of the ball, I would be fully prepared by the time the ball bounces. I would ideally like to see you hold on with your left hand longer into the backswing, getting a fuller stretch of the upper body.

          2) Right Leg Bend - When setting up to drive forward, the right leg (base leg) doesn't bend much, limiting the kinetic chain potential.

          3) Lack of Separation of Hips/Shoulders/Arm - In your forward swing, your hips and shoulders don't separate much, i.e. they move together, thus limiting the kinetic chain. The separation of body parts is what creates elastic energy by separating the power sections of the kinetic chain. The release of "tension" created by the separations is what creates the "free power". If you fire the hips first, the shoulders will lag back, as the shoulders rotate forward, the arm will lag back creating external shoulder rotation. Greater ESR = greater ISR on the arms forward swing.

          My 2 cents -

          Sean O

          Thank you so much! I can definitely see what you mean about the lack of separation and leg drive. I think that in making my backswing and setup more compact Iím focusing a little too much on the turn and elbow angle and not enough coiling and uncoiling. Now that the motion is becoming more automatic Iíll definitely work on speeding up the setup and coiling/using my legs more.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by rthodges View Post
            Iíve been trying to add some modern elements to my forehand, mainly a more compact backswing and more spin. I tried emulating the ATP type 3 model Brian Gordon describes but I canít seem to get the level of turbocharged internal shoulder rotation he describes. Itís like my Stretch Shorten Cycle is all stretch, but no shortening after! I took some video of myself and would really appreciate any and all criticism and pointers!
            Apologies, rthodges You've been neglected. Some bloke at the top end of the forum has been hogging the show.

            It's a fine forehand and well worthy of attention. Seano has made some great points and you would do well to take them onboard. I agree your preparation is slightly late. If you prepared earlier, you could stretch harder across the body with your right arm and get a deeper turn.

            The trouble with ball machines is the player will always switch into semi-casual mode very quickly. It's normal, sooner or later the body wants to economise and the striking will become more casual...less dynamic. Every part of your forehand shot could be a little more dynamic and especially in terms of loading and driving up.

            Another thing I noticed is your head is a tad too perched up and tends to ride back a little on contact. Addressing that might help a bit. A good model for you would be Djokovic. He is straight-backed like yourself and he has his grip a long way round too. Where is your grip? It looks a strong semi-western? Novak's unit turn and preparation is the cleanest and best in the game. I would study that and try to take it in if I were you. It would make a huge difference to your forehand if you could pull it off.

            Thanks for posting. You deserve way more response. At least the guy that did post is top-notch and you got great advice.
            Stotty

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            • #7
              Lots of issues, chief among them is that you are standing up and overrotating before braking the chest.

              You need to stay down and stop the chest perpendicular to the target so the hand can speed up. At contact the racquet head is well below the hand because you are pulling up and across. If you stop the shoulders you will rotate the racquet head into the ball and be parallel to the ground at contact. Then you can get full extension with your hand in front of your shoulder and racquet tip pointing left.


              J

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              • #8
                JO11yroger -

                I'm alittle confused what you're asking here, could you further explain what you would like to see. Where should the shoulders be at contact, "full extension with your hand in front of your shoulder and racquet tip pointing left? Thanks, I'm not a verbal learner.

                SeanO

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                • #9
                  He is short changing himself on both ends, not getting enough stretch because the hips don't fire and not enough whip because the chest doesn't stop.

                  There is an overall lack of separation.

                  J

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seano View Post
                    JO11yroger -

                    I'm alittle confused what you're asking here, could you further explain what you would like to see. Where should the shoulders be at contact, "full extension with your hand in front of your shoulder and racquet tip pointing left? Thanks, I'm not a verbal learner.

                    SeanO
                    Originally posted by J011yroger View Post
                    He is short changing himself on both ends, not getting enough stretch because the hips don't fire and not enough whip because the chest doesn't stop.

                    There is an overall lack of separation.

                    J
                    I like it. There is coaching going on. All too often we get coaches showing knowledge but not always telling the student how to going about change. don_budge is good in this regard buts others just analyse and nothing else.

                    This is interesting because the concrete things he can do easily is to prepare earlier and load better. What is not so easy is changing the sequence of events, such as firing the hips earlier, that's tricky. Stopping the chest is an interesting one. I wonder if it would work. It would be nice to get rthodges shooting some clips and trying to carry out these things out...before and after clips...get a workshop going.

                    Stotty

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by stotty View Post



                      I like it. There is coaching going on. All too often we get coaches showing knowledge but not always telling the student how to going about change. don_budge is good in this regard buts others just analyse and nothing else.

                      This is interesting because the concrete things he can do easily is to prepare earlier and load better. What is not so easy is changing the sequence of events, such as firing the hips earlier, that's tricky. Stopping the chest is an interesting one. I wonder if it would work. It would be nice to get rthodges shooting some clips and trying to carry out these things out...before and after clips...get a workshop going.

                      ​​​​​​If he were my student I would put him on a medicine ball throwing routine, and then we would spend a lot of time on beefing up the middle of the stroke and line control via hand feeds.

                      J

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                      • #12
                        Wow, guys thank you so much for taking the time to look at my stroke and give such great advice! I actually had a chance to groove on the ball machine again last night and tried to implement the earlier turn and extension like seano suggested.

                        Stotty, Iíll have to study some Djokovic footage. I tried to take some inspiration from Agassi to simplify my unit turn and backswing, but thatís a really good point about my head and back. Itís definitely hard to not get casual with the ball machine, itís a fine line between good and bad repetition. Iíll try and do some shorter and more intense clips going forward. I hit with my heel on 3 and my knuckle on 4.

                        Jolly, I think I get what youíre saying. Thanks for the pics, itís a stark contrast! Are there any specific body parts I need to move differently to brake more and fire my hips earlier?

                        Hereís some video from yesterday:
                         
                        Last edited by rthodges; 12-17-2019, 05:32 PM. Reason: SP

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                        • #13
                          Apologies in advance for the KG Dywane Wade interview in the background.
                           

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                            • #15
                              Hello rthodges...a few questions for you if you don't mind. I like the angles of the first two videos. Great quality overall. Would like the camera to be a bit closer...particularly from that front view.

                              How old are you?
                              How tall are you?
                              What are your past experiences in athletics?
                              What are your goals with your tennis?

                              I have some very definite ideas about your forehand stroke but I need to get in your head just a bit. Thank you.

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