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  • #31
    With all due respect the last thing I would be thinking about is ISR, I can assure you that 99% of advanced players with advanced serves don't know what ISR is. I'm not saying its not real or significant, I'm saying you don't need to know what it is and certainly shouldn't be thinking about it. Its not something you try to improve, Its a byproduct of proper fundamentals, its not a fundamental in and of itself. There are only 4 basic fundamentals to any serve, grip, stance, toss and contact point. What happens before after or between those things doesn't matter.

    You have a basic idea of what your doing, The first thing that screamed out to me was your toss, its way to aggressive. Too far into the court for a kick serve and the other thing is the height of your toss, its way too low. The fact that some advanced players who have been playing their whole lives can hit a great kick with an aggressive low toss doesn't mean someone learning the serve should try and mimic those things. Fundamentals take a very long time to master, When you master them things come together and timing improves, When timing improves you can do things you couldn't do before. So it is mostly a waste of time to try and do what the pros do. Thats not how learning works.

    If you are in the right grip and your stance is correct, if you are tossing the ball high enough and to the correct point in space which should be slightly to the left of your head, if you are making contact before the ball drops to low and are therefore stretched and reaching,... If you are doing all of those things ( you're not) and you're not happy with the amount of spin you're getting than either you are not dropping your racket low enough, not swinging fast enough or your arm/wrist /hand is not relaxed enough or a combination of all of those things. But every single thing I just mentioned takes years of practice to master. Don't be rushed. I estimated that it took my daughter 100,000 serves over 5 years to be able to hit high level serves. I practiced 200-300 serves a day for 3 years before I could consistently hit all my serves. It takes a long time and thats only if you are practicing the correct things ( fundamentals ie, grip stance toss and contact point) If you over analyze and start thinking about things like leg drive, the trophy position ISR racket lag etc you're going to overload your brain with a bunch or useless thoughts. Stick to the basics, Things like bending and the way you follow-through will happen as a result of mastering the fundamentals, Most people have it backwards, they mix up cause and effect.

    Learning tennis is much easier than people want to make it out to be. The difficult part is the dedication persistence and sustained effort. Its not difficult to practice your toss, Its difficult to make yourself practice your toss every day until you master it. Practice the correct things enough and its impossible not to get really good at it. But you have to love it. You have to love practice.

    As to why your toss should be higher rather than lower, You will get more spin regardless of the type of serve with a higher toss because the ball is traveling faster which means youre going to get more counter spin without trying when contact is made. But the most important reason to toss higher is for timing. A higher ball gives your mind and body more time to figure things out and that's pivotal when your learning something new.. The lower the toss, the less time you have, the less time the more rushed your are and the last thing you want when learning the serve is to be rushed. Give yourself plenty of time by tossing nice and high..

    Good luck and now I will resist the urge to respond when others come along telling you how wrong I am.. Lol!
    Last edited by Error; 12-13-2019, 10:03 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
      Knifer,

      Looks like he could use more pronation--actually internal shoulder arm and racket rotation. Don't worry about Jolly--he's a good guy.
      No John!! LOL Pronation or whatever the correct term is ( racket face ends up facing the side) is not a real thing that contributes to anything. So many of the best players in history as well as current great players don't pronate. For whatever reason some players pronate and others don't but there is no correlation between pronation and the quality of the serve. Ive also noticed that some players pronate sometimes and not others. Pronation is just a byproduct of something else that doesn't seem to be very important. I looked into this years ago, Some of the guys,off the top of my head that didn't/ don't pronate ....Agassi, Becker, McEnroe, Edberg, Kyrgios, Murry, Delpotro and the list goes on and on.
      Last edited by Error; 12-13-2019, 10:36 PM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Error View Post
        With all due respect the last thing I would be thinking about is ISR, I can assure you that 99% of advanced players with advanced serves don't know what ISR is...

        If you are in the right grip and your stance is correct, if you are tossing the ball high enough and to the correct point in space which should be slightly to the left of your head, if you are making contact before the ball drops to low and are therefore stretched and reaching,...
        The romance of ISR took over this thread. But Error is anything but "in Error". The first thing that I evaluate is the grip and stance. Then it is the backswing. The all important backswing. The arc of the racquet is what dictates the motion. The motion is the thing. Results are another entirely.

        If you want to improve this young fellow's motion...you must evaluate the motion. How is the motion attained? By force...or by gravity? He's forcing it with pretty good results. The question is how much better can it be? How much potential is unrealised? I would say plenty.

        But the pursuit of ISR is hot on the trail. Cast to the wind is any concept of fluidity or motion. Which is fine with me by the way.
        don_budge
        Performance Analysthttps://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...ilies/cool.png

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        • #34
          Originally posted by knifer View Post

          I guess I don't understand what ISR really is. I thought at least the video in the collage at 0:15 (https://youtu.be/suXzML8y5-A?t=15) and at 0:17 depicted ISR. And I can't view the links to the tennis player net archives without paying I don't think
          I recommend joining. It would be an ideal resource for you and your son and it would be a great journey. It's the journey that counts...so rewarding.

          Coaches will see different things in the same stroke and you just have to make judgements and do the weeding yourself. Some will see ISR as a culprit, some the lower body, some the backswing. One thing for sure is you know your son better than anyone and there is no harm in trying coaches' suggestions to see how things take. I like to look at the forum as a conversation that one can take or leave. I have posted many players to get second opinions from others but ultimately I decide what is best for my students.

          Most of us are anoraks on here, probably all of us have a screw loose, but we all love the game and will put the time in to help any Tom, Dick or Harry that loves the game and wants to improve.

          Joining Tennisplayer will be your best investment. You will come to understand biomechanics and what is superfluous to a tennis stroke and what isn't. And no John isn't paying me to write this post. I have been knocking around this forum for over a decade and it's just my humble opinion.

          I took a good look at 0:15 and it is exactly the same as all the rest in the clip. Good ISR should maximise power in my view. Anyone who isn't doing it fully will be losing a bit of pop. And that's whoever it is and not matter how quick they serve if they aren't doing it fully.
          Last edited by stotty; 12-14-2019, 03:24 AM.
          Stotty

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          • #35
            Originally posted by error View Post
            no john!! Lol pronation or whatever the correct term is ( racket face ends up facing the side) is not a real thing that contributes to anything. So many of the best players in history as well as current great players don't pronate. For whatever reason some players pronate and others don't but there is no correlation between pronation and the quality of the serve. Ive also noticed that some players pronate sometimes and not others. Pronation is just a byproduct of something else that doesn't seem to be very important. I looked into this years ago, some of the guys,off the top of my head that didn't/ don't pronate ....agassi, becker, mcenroe, edberg, kyrgios, murry, delpotro and the list goes on and on.

            j
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            • #36
              If ISR accounts for 45% of racquet head speed, how is that NOT important?
              SeanO

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              • #37
                Originally posted by knifer View Post

                This one should be slow-mo.
                Okay. So I think I can definitely see a few issues here. He seems to have a super flexible shoulder and gets a very good drop and definitely creates a kick. The problem is that he is completely off balance and his body doesn't move forward. I am sure that John could help him immensely. But if traveling to see John doesn't work, I would take some hints from this article. The issues seem very similar. My view is that there is a certain image of what the serve is and it doesn't fit with what a serve should be.



                If I were helping him, I would force him to keep his feet on the ground and practice rolling the ball from his hand. I would even have him choke up on the racket, and roll it from just behind his neck with the hand and have him fling it up high. This would create a connection between an upright position and the kick. Right now he is almost falling to his left when he serves. This will throw out his back at some point and wastes an immense amount of energy. You could also have him kneel and kick the serve. I would keep toggling between all these stances (feet on ground, knees on ground, flicking from the back of the neck) over and over again. The key should never be speed or strength. The sole focus should be on feel and smoothness.

                Once he can hit a kick serve with his feet on the ground at about 40% power, I would start to have him accelerate. His body is hooked on all these contorted motions and the only way to get him to quit is to rebuild the serve. He has a good drop and flexibility so it should eventually be a good serve.

                But I fear he will throw out his back, hurt his knee or something like that at some point. It is also no secret that he is going to hit a kick. At some point he will face a player that won't be bothered by this and will read his serve and simply return it very quickly. Because of all his instability he will have trouble dealing with any return that further destabilizes him.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by don_budge View Post

                  The romance of ISR took over this thread.
                  Made me smile, and look up Godwin's Law, which asserts "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1". I think we've discovered a modified Godwin's Law related to ISR on the TennisPlayer forum.

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                  • #39
                    Ok so the only serve saved on my phone where he pronates the racket off to the side like y'all are describing is here and I realized something: this is a missed hard slice serve down the T whereas all of the other one are "twist" serves designed to catch the wide angle short in the box in the ad court.
                     
                    Last edited by knifer; 12-14-2019, 01:04 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Error,
                      Except for Edberg all your photos are showing hand and racket rotation. Fed totally rotates on every serve as does Thiem as does Isner. Here is an article showing my views on it.



                      We can agree to disagree but the evidence shows it's a real thing.

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                      • #41
                        Knifer,
                        Surprised you aren't a subscriber. If you went into the high speed archives and looked at Fed or Sampras you would see full hand arm and racket rotation on serves to all 4 corners.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by knifer View Post
                          Ok so the only serve saved on my phone where he pronates the racket off to the side like y'all are describing is here and I realized something: this is a missed hard slice serve down the T whereas all of the other one are "twist" serves designed to catch the wide angle short in the box in the ad court.
                          Bingo...that's good one!
                          Stotty

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                            Knifer,
                            Surprised you aren't a subscriber. If you went into the high speed archives and looked at Fed or Sampras you would see full hand arm and racket rotation on serves to all 4 corners.
                            Thinking about it, probably will.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by stotty View Post

                              Bingo...that's good one!
                              Yeah, I should've have been clearer when I said "Junior Kick"; this is his twist serve to the ad. He tries to drop it short in the box as you can see in Post #23. He owns 1/2 - 3/4 of the way down the singles line in the ad square. Not sure ISR is a key ingredient in that kind of serve???

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by knifer View Post

                                Not sure ISR is a key ingredient in that kind of serve???
                                Good question. I'm sure it is. I just wonder if his ball toss on the second serve is too much to the left and this causes the problem. Ironically having the ball toss a little to the left should encourage good ISR, but I wonder if your son's toss, being way over to the left, inhibits ISR because to fully rotate the arm would then put him off balance. John is probably the only one who could answer that question for sure...I'm just thinking out loud.

                                I'll take a look at the clips again and investigate a bit more in the meantime.
                                Last edited by stotty; 12-14-2019, 02:12 PM.
                                Stotty

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