The 4 Pillars of the Type III ATP Forehand

[BrianGordon]

Great input guys.

The type 3 swing isn't technically a looped motion so vertical momentum of the racquet exiting the backswing isn't really desired. The vertical position of the racquet head (in addition to external rotation) is a function of the flip so a downward motion artifact from the backswing or non-flip manipulation in the forward swing is actually an interference.

Some momentum of the hand may be marginally useful to help generate the forward force in the early forward swing by facilitating a feeling of fluidity. This is why some straight armers finish straightening the arm early in the forward swing. But this small amount of residual straightening is driven by the torso rotation and early non-twisting shoulder (motion dependent) rather than the elbow being actively extended. Building this into players creates a lot more problems than it solves - it must evolve as an optimization.

The problem with the elbow is two-fold: positioning and bending in the early forward swing. The key point to me goes back to the "hips create flips" idea. Proper sequencing implies the shoulder joint can be quite inactive (relaxed) in the first part of the forward swing. This is necessary for proper flip mechanics but is a skill not inherent to most learning the swing. Rather they try to "muscle" the early forward swing with the shoulder - this causes both the positioning and bending problem which are quite related and unfortunately familiar if they come from a type 1 or 2 background.

I think it is the desire to crush the ball (for my players) that causes this muscling. If they hit from the service line (mini-tennis) they all look like Fed. Move them back to the baseline and everything changes. It takes time and experience (if ever) to convince them they can crush it more if they sequence rather than muscle the early forward swing.

[jperedo]

BrianGordon thanks for the clarification, now that’s one more thing I can remove from my thought process. Yes I have noticed that actively extending thru the flip during my last couple of hits actually made the elbow less stable, noticeably so in the video footage. On the other hand, the footage where I simply thought about “hips make flips” , as well as elbow position seemed to look way better.

[don_budge]

I've reading this thread and read the article with great interest. Although I can barely muster any sort of interest in anything tennis at this point as all of my energy and interest is being applied into a somewhat unnatural obsession with my golf game. I think in some ways it serves as an escape from the current realities on the planet. Viruses...impending civil wars. But somehow I find a connection here in the dual presentation of Mister Dr. Brian Gordon. Rock Star of golf...I mean tennis technique. Bio mechanics.

One interesting note Brian is your dismissive attitude about the backswing. This I find rather fascinating and I struggle to comprehend that. For me, whether it is a golf swing or a tennis swing it is about setting up to go forwards. If you "get in position" most of your biomechanical dilemmas are already solved for you. The other thing that I am fixated on is the "inner elbow" and the relationship to the work done by the shoulder.

Peter Cowen is a rather gruff Australian who is Henrik Stenson's golf guru. I bought a CD done by him and he describes in the ultimate of basic terms the role of the shoulder, the elbow and the wrist in the right arm of the golf swing. The tennis equivalent of the forehand motion. The right arm being the appendage that I struggle to maximise utility of...being as I play tennis left handed. Plus I bat left handed while playing golf right handed. He describes the elbow as being a very stable joint as it can only basically move in one direction. The wrist he demonstrates as a two folded joint as you can both "cock it" and "hinge it". He maintains that you use more cocking than hingeing. It is the shoulder that is problematic in golf as it is a rather chaotic joint as it has a rather entire complete range of motion. So in the theory of Cowen it is the duty of the backswing to stabilise the shoulder with the position of the inner elbow that makes a repeatable motion possible.

While I don't expect anyone to understand what I am talking about...I believe that this is fully tennis relevant. Somehow the position of the elbow in the backswing is very or even ultimately important in the way you go forwards with the swing.

Some really good comments and insight. Very interesting. Somehow I think viruses and tennis/golf mechanics have a lot in common. Both are very misunderstood and mysterious. Or not.

[don_budge]

Did I mention how good this article is? The dual use of words and video is excellent. All that is missing is the transcript. One of the better articles here on tennisplayer.com in the memorable past. Truly excellent...and I am speaking from a golfing perspective.

[BrianGordon]

Hi don_budge -

Thanks for the kind words, the time spent in considering this piece, and your observations. I always appreciate a good golf analogy - as we have discussed before there are clear parallels in the mechanical goals and attributes of the two very technical sports.

I don't mean to be dismissive of the backswing. No question that the conditions established in the back swing are critical to the elements of the forward swing. In the interest of full disclosure I insist on a very particular back swing and probably spend more time and effort on that than the forward swing for the reasons you mention. I just don't consider it a paramount piece of of the ATP forehand definition (at least mine) - assuming adequate initial conditions established in the backswing, the definitive action occurs from there to contact.

This position is based on the wide variability of backswings evident at even the highest levels that ultimately result in a forward swing that fulfills the criteria of at least the ATP, if not the Type III swing. And it is the forward swing characteristics that determine the shot produced. Though I've seen some pretty interesting backswings in golf (including mine), it appears to me that there is less variability at the highest levels than on the tennis strokes - I could be wrong about that, but my layman's feeling is the mechanical tolerance in golf technique is millimeters compared to at least centimeters in tennis.

[stroke]

Brian, I would not bet against your "layman's feeling".

[natemanwell]

Hi Brian,

Great article about the mechanics of the type 3 forehand. It was really clear when all the components were assembled together in one piece. When you said that the hitting arm had to be no more than 165 degrees bent, when in the swing was that measurement referring to? Directly prior to the flip, at contact, or some other time?

Thanks!

[glacierguy]

Dr Gordon's explanation of the Type III is so good, it makes this thowback to the '80s want to get on court and try a few just for the fun of it. I wonder what would happen if I nailed a Type III with a Prostaff 85? Could be epic! Thanks very much for the article.

[BrianGordon]

Appreciate the great words and thanks for the input!

natemanwell - I teach that elbow configuration throughout the forward swing (from end of backswing to contact). In other words I don't like any change in the elbow angle during the forward swing. As jperedo pointed out, some straight arm hitters finish elbow straightening very early in the forward swing (early flip). I find that adds unneeded complication - if it evolves as an individual expression, great.

glacierguy - Brian please. 85 no problem - you got this. Let me know what happens - epic indeed!

[macaque]

Appreciate the great words and thanks for the input!

As jperedo pointed out, some straight arm hitters finish elbow straightening very early in the forward swing (early flip). I find that adds unneeded complication - if it evolves as an individual expression, great.

Hello Brian,

as far as I know, most straight armers have a minimal degree of elbow bend when they initiate the forward swing, and the elbow extends by the weight of the racket pulling the arm completely straight in the early stages of the hip turn. Watch Nadal here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Ta9DbHKjk

Would you recommend to instead have the arm completely straight already at the beginning of the forward swing?

Another thing I would like to please get your take on is the issue of the furthest point the elbow should reach during the backswing. Nadal clearly breaks the shoulder-to-shoulder line with his elbow, i.e., to use your terminology, while his racket always stays on the outside (the hitting side of the body, as opposed to a WTA forehand) he tucks in the elbow somewhat, bringing it a bit to the inside. Is this technically sound or could he perhaps improve his forehand even further by always keeping the elbow on the outside?

Thanks a lot!

[don_budge]

Hi don_budge -Thanks for the kind words, the time spent in considering this piece, and your observations. I always appreciate a good golf analogy - as we have discussed before there are clear parallels in the mechanical goals and attributes of the two very technical sports.

I don't mean to be dismissive of the backswing. No question that the conditions established in the back swing are critical to the elements of the forward swing. In the interest of full disclosure I insist on a very particular back swing and probably spend more time and effort on that than the forward swing for the reasons you mention. I just don't consider it a paramount piece of of the ATP forehand definition (at least mine) - assuming adequate initial conditions established in the backswing, the definitive action occurs from there to contact.

This position is based on the wide variability of backswings evident at even the highest levels that ultimately result in a forward swing that fulfills the criteria of at least the ATP, if not the Type III swing. And it is the forward swing characteristics that determine the shot produced. Though I've seen some pretty interesting backswings in golf (including mine), it appears to me that there is less variability at the highest levels than on the tennis strokes - I could be wrong about that, but my layman's feeling is the mechanical tolerance in golf technique is millimeters compared to at least centimeters in tennis.

Ok...so how much do you charge to get the preferred backswing specs? Dying to know what you prescribe and I have an inkling that this is going to be a cure-all for any golf swing problems. How about it Doc and don't leave out any of the details.

[BrianGordon]

macaque - see post #31 where I addressed the first observation. I think it is great for the residual extension to occur in the forward swing - fosters relaxation in the shoulder joint and flow compared to less of each with straightening by the end of the backswing. From a purely mechanical perspective it is best to have it straight as the pull is initiated. From a human performance perspective is probably best to have the residual straightening. I am primarily a development coach though, building this into very young players. It has been my experience that establishing the fundamentals with the elbow straight entering the forward swing is far simpler - once the fundamentals are there residual straightening is icing on the cake.

Nadal pushes the limits of the initial position of the hand (a function of the elbow position you reference) starting the forward swing. In this regard he is an outlier to my model - but that is the nice thing about models, they attenuate the outliers. This is clearly an optimized position evolved to facilitate his speed/spin/trajectory preference. So no, I don't believe his forehand would be better from a more outside hand position unless he changed his approach to shot making - wouldn't suggest that.

don_budge - if my model tennis backswing cured golf swing issues then mine would not suck so bad. The specifics of my backswing version would not be well described in writing on a forum. That is a good idea for an article in the combined format though - so maybe I'll stick my beer belly butt (quarantine hasn't worked that well for me) in front of a camera again in the near future.

[don_budge]

don_budge - if my model tennis backswing cured golf swing issues then mine would not suck so bad. The specifics of my backswing version would not be well described in writing on a forum. That is a good idea for an article in the combined format though - so maybe I'll stick my beer belly butt (quarantine hasn't worked that well for me) in front of a camera again in the near future.

No Brian...that is a great idea. Looking forwards to it. Btw...I can fix your backswing. I say that without having seen it. I say that because I believe that I just fixed mine and it is the most important key to the swing. I'm thinking that it may just be as important in the tennis forehand swing.

My problem is that after not playing golf for ten years and teaching tennis left handed I became left handed dominate and was not entirely certain what I had to do with my right arm and right side to accomplish the swing. But after gathering some rather simple information from Peter Cowen...an Australian golf coach...I think that I have found the solution and I am really, really curious how it is going to stack up with your conceptual backswing. I won't be surprised if there are some rather startling similarities. Thanks man...you Rock.

[BrianGordon]

No Brian...that is a great idea. Looking forwards to it. Btw...I can fix your backswing. I say that without having seen it. I say that because I believe that I just fixed mine and it is the most important key to the swing. I'm thinking that it may just be as important in the tennis forehand swing.

My problem is that after not playing golf for ten years and teaching tennis left handed I became left handed dominate and was not entirely certain what I had to do with my right arm and right side to accomplish the swing. But after gathering some rather simple information from Peter Cowen...an Australian golf coach...I think that I have found the solution and I am really, really curious how it is going to stack up with your conceptual backswing. I won't be surprised if there are some rather startling similarities. Thanks man...you Rock.

Sounds interesting... I'll put out the tennis backswing and you apply it to the (and fix my) golf backswing - deal.

[don_budge]

Sounds interesting... I'll put out the tennis backswing and you apply it to the (and fix my) golf backswing - deal.

I am so glad you are going take this on. Please include the initiation of the forward swing from the backswing as this is perhaps the moment of truth...even as compared to the strike of the ball. The entire key to the golf swing and I suspect a key to the tennis swing also, is the transition from the backswing to the forwards motion. Thanks very much for agreeing to take this on. I believe that this just might be a big moment for you and the crew here at tennisplayer.net. Some of the posters have related the problems they have experienced with this type of forehand and this article with video may just cure what ails them...Dr. Gordon aka my good friend Brian!