Leylah Fernandez, Type 3 forehand, easier to change direction than Type 2 or Type 1

[arturohernandez]

Interesting pairing. Tons of tour and 'Slam experience there. In public at least I recall him as a calm influence while Angie was screaming.

My cynical side says, "Torben could never fix Angie's serve but Emma doesn't need that". Sorry, couldn't resist.

It's hard to fix strokes. Macci worked for three years (according to his interview) to make Serena and Venus better in terms of technique, movement, etc. They also had hitting partners. If you notice, Serena has the better serve than Venus. I think at least in part that has to do with getting better instruction at a younger age.

Angie did not get the right instruction for her serve young enough. At some point, she simply had to make it less of a liability than completely revamp it.

A coach can only do so much at a certain age. Norman never fixed Wawrinka's serve either. It could also have been improved.

Emma has a much better serve. Now she just needs Angie's toughness which came later in her career.

That will be the tricky part. Is she willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top? Is she all in?

Time will tell!

[jimlosaltos]

Raducanu now working with Torben Beltz. Torben spent three different stints with Angelique Kerber and getting her to #1 in the world and grand slams. We will see how that works out.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA, PTR
Delray Beach
SETS Consulting
http://www.setsconsult.org

Interesting pairing. Tons of tour and 'Slam experience there. In public at least I recall him as a calm influence while Angie was screaming.

My cynical side says, "Torben could never fix Angie's serve but Emma doesn't need that". Sorry, couldn't resist.

[klacr]

Emma lost to the #106 player in the world tonight. She was the number one seed in Linz. She has her work cut out for her...

...I think she has some toughness about her. She's an attractive young lady and you have to wonder if she can really have a passion for the game that a guy like Sampras did. Time will tell. But I wouldn't bet on it. Those expectations have a way of becoming a yoke around your neck...causing you to choke and gag in matches.

Raducanu now working with Torben Beltz. Torben spent three different stints with Angelique Kerber and getting her to #1 in the world and grand slams. We will see how that works out.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA, PTR
Delray Beach
SETS Consulting

http://www.setsconsult.org

[don_budge]

Emma lost to the #106 player in the world tonight. She was the number one seed in Linz. She has her work cut out for her. I have been watching women's tennis more because of her victory at the Open and it is an eye opener. Number one...some of these young ladies are really hot. But the other thing is they can play. I have been surprised at the compilation of the service motions and there are many that are actually better than what you see on the men's tour. I am really pulling for Emma. I think it is all uphill because of the expectations. It is a commitment and I don't know if she knows whether or not she has that kind of commitment. She could be a one hit wonder and have a great life because of it.

I think she has some toughness about her. She's an attractive young lady and you have to wonder if she can really have a passion for the game that a guy like Sampras did. Time will tell. But I wouldn't bet on it. Those expectations have a way of becoming a yoke around your neck...causing you to choke and gag in matches.

[stroke]

Sampras was great but bottom line he never came really close to winning the FO. To me, winning all 4 is the starting point when talking about the best ever. Lendl for instance came way way closer to winning his Achilles Heel, Wimbledon, than Sampras did to winning the FO.

[arturohernandez]

I got this quote from the "Emma Raducanu - Leapfrogging". Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Leapfrogging? More like the lead balloon. Judging from her initial reaction to fame I'm thinking one hit wonder when it comes to the British darling. Leapfrogged right into the abyss. Fired the coach was the first move. Wow...just think about that for a second. Just how fucked up is that. It's mind boggling. She's left herself wide open for all kinds of problems. The first move should have been to get to work and try to forget the Open. Like it never happened. Instead she has opted for Celebrity Lane. It is a dead end. Life doesn't work like that.

The other little teenage wizard has her work cut out for her. There absolutely no gimmees in life. You want it? You take it and pay the price. Leylah's initial reaction is much more conducive to positive expectations than the other Diva's. She isn't going to reign supreme on any surface though. She has some grit...that's a good thing. But as far as the total package goes, that remains to be seen. Not going to put the cart before the horse in either of these player's future premonitions.

Now that Emma has been put squarely on her ass in her first outing...the sharks are going to smell blood and trust me they are going in for the kill. Her scalp is a premium now. Until she is pounded into obscurity. Unless she can right the ship. Hiring back the old coach might be a start. A radical move. That is what it is going to take in her case...something radical.

Sampras did it. And he is proud and could easily not have done it. Great ones will do whatever it takes. I think Leylah could win the French Open. She can move with the best of them. Chang did it and Leylah gives me that vibe.

I saw some of Emma's highlights from a recent tournament. She seems to kind of have one gear. Just hit harder and harder. I am surprised that she does not use all her gifts. Maybe once she rehires that coach.

[stotty]

Neither Pisces nor Berekley (although I lived there for a while) <g>

Good analogy of Leylah to Rafa/ Chang.

Here's a tidbit from a story on early Emma, can't recall where, but about what distinguished her from other young teen tennis stars. Some talk about serve, etc but this from a coach, roughly: "When I wanted to egg her on in practice, I'd mention Iga {Swiatek} or {another player I can't remember} and she'd get fired up."

So, there are competitive juices. Perhaps that's what she needs from next coach?

I had an interesting chat with a friend of mine who watched Emma's match with Hercog. He says Emma should trust her game and play within herself (rather like Novak does I always think) rather than trying to live up US Open expectations and going for too much. I can't say I disagree with him. Trusting in your game is an immense quality. Players like Roger and Novak are steeped in it.

Emma herself thinks she needs to learn to coach herself. That's one of the most refeshing things she's ever said and contradicts modern tennis where most players seem to need overseeing to go to the bathroom. I like the idea of players coaching themselves. But that said she also needs an experienced coach and mentor right now. Someone to give her an overview of the tour and an appraisal of where she stands and what needs to be done to succeed week in week out.

Remarkable to think Emma has just won her first WTA match.

[jimlosaltos]

Are you a Pisces? Born in Berkeley? We seem to be on the same page here.

There was of replay of a scream that she let out during the final of the US Open. It was similar to the way Marin Cilic looks at times. There is a kind of fear in the scream and not as much aggression. Federer can look like that at times too. But with that much talent and enough support, Fed has learned to fight through and prevail.

Djokovic and Nadal never look afraid. They are moodier and darker in their aggression. Nadal does a great job of hiding it and controlling it. Djokovic has learned the hard way to try and appear less arrogant. But there is a combative moodiness when they are playing well.

Leylah reminds me the most of Nadal or Michael Chang. She is like a prize fighter who enjoys the battle. She would find a way to win a match even if she was cramping.

Emma seems more fragile. Maybe a little more like Pete Sampras in his very young years. He had switched to a one hander and was taken to task by Agassi and Chang. Then out of nowhere he passed them. When he defended his first US Open title, he admittedly gave up and just checked out.

Never again! Sampras vowed to himself never to give up and he played through serious physical issues to either prolong a match or find a way to win.

Not sure if Emma is more like Sampras or more like a Marat Safin. Does she want to win multiple slams or is one enough?

Leylah looks like she could keep on fighting for another hour after every match if she had to.

The real issue for her is size. She appears smaller than Ash Barty and Barty is on the lower side of slam champion height. Even Barty can get pushed around.

On a slower surface or at Wimbledon she could reign supreme. The slippery surfaces will be difficult for taller bigger players. Leylah will have all the time in the world to move them all over the court.

But, yes, Leylah. like you wrote, appears to have more upside and to be able to sustain a higher level.

The future for the two of them will be interesting.

Neither Pisces nor Berekley (although I lived there for a while) <g>

Good analogy of Leylah to Rafa/ Chang.

Here's a tidbit from a story on early Emma, can't recall where, but about what distinguished her from other young teen tennis stars. Some talk about serve, etc but this from a coach, roughly: "When I wanted to egg her on in practice, I'd mention Iga {Swiatek} or {another player I can't remember} and she'd get fired up."

So, there are competitive juices. Perhaps that's what she needs from next coach?

[don_budge]

Emma gets her first taste of competition as an Ultra Celebrity. How will she react? Her first opponent is Aliaksandra Sasnovich.

Oops...the above was a post I forgot to hit "post reply". Apparently she didn't react. Hmmm...she has that huge target on her back now that says..."hit me". She fired the coach and comes out of the gate like a lead balloon. The psychology of her win and the implications were huge. She thought/thinks she needs to add a big name to her posse. It will be interesting going forwards. Expectations is a nasty mind you know what.

I got this quote from the "Emma Raducanu - Leapfrogging". Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Leapfrogging? More like the lead balloon. Judging from her initial reaction to fame I'm thinking one hit wonder when it comes to the British darling. Leapfrogged right into the abyss. Fired the coach was the first move. Wow...just think about that for a second. Just how fucked up is that. It's mind boggling. She's left herself wide open for all kinds of problems. The first move should have been to get to work and try to forget the Open. Like it never happened. Instead she has opted for Celebrity Lane. It is a dead end. Life doesn't work like that.

The other little teenage wizard has her work cut out for her. There absolutely no gimmees in life. You want it? You take it and pay the price. Leylah's initial reaction is much more conducive to positive expectations than the other Diva's. She isn't going to reign supreme on any surface though. She has some grit...that's a good thing. But as far as the total package goes, that remains to be seen. Not going to put the cart before the horse in either of these player's future premonitions.

Now that Emma has been put squarely on her ass in her first outing...the sharks are going to smell blood and trust me they are going in for the kill. Her scalp is a premium now. Until she is pounded into obscurity. Unless she can right the ship. Hiring back the old coach might be a start. A radical move. That is what it is going to take in her case...something radical.

[arturohernandez]

Sadly, I didn't see Emma. That's twice I've gone to an event hoping to see her and she's lost in the first round. I believe she has not yet won a (is it a match or set?) on the WTA tour. She played in a Chicago 125 but apparently that's not considered "the tour". To win a major with zero tour wins is ... perplexing.

Leylah, though, continues to impress. She's making a routine out of losing the first set to very good players, yet not wilting, coming back and often winning. Even in her exit from Indian Wells, Leylah broke Rogers when she served for the match before losing the tiebreak.

Not sure I want to say this out loud yet, but I've got this feeling Leylah is going to do better than Emma, at least for a while. She's ready to compete with anyone right now. Scrappy. Finds a way to win.

Are you a Pisces? Born in Berkeley? We seem to be on the same page here.

There was of replay of a scream that she let out during the final of the US Open. It was similar to the way Marin Cilic looks at times. There is a kind of fear in the scream and not as much aggression. Federer can look like that at times too. But with that much talent and enough support, Fed has learned to fight through and prevail.

Djokovic and Nadal never look afraid. They are moodier and darker in their aggression. Nadal does a great job of hiding it and controlling it. Djokovic has learned the hard way to try and appear less arrogant. But there is a combative moodiness when they are playing well.

Leylah reminds me the most of Nadal or Michael Chang. She is like a prize fighter who enjoys the battle. She would find a way to win a match even if she was cramping.

Emma seems more fragile. Maybe a little more like Pete Sampras in his very young years. He had switched to a one hander and was taken to task by Agassi and Chang. Then out of nowhere he passed them. When he defended his first US Open title, he admittedly gave up and just checked out.

Never again! Sampras vowed to himself never to give up and he played through serious physical issues to either prolong a match or find a way to win.

Not sure if Emma is more like Sampras or more like a Marat Safin. Does she want to win multiple slams or is one enough?

Leylah looks like she could keep on fighting for another hour after every match if she had to.

The real issue for her is size. She appears smaller than Ash Barty and Barty is on the lower side of slam champion height. Even Barty can get pushed around.

On a slower surface or at Wimbledon she could reign supreme. The slippery surfaces will be difficult for taller bigger players. Leylah will have all the time in the world to move them all over the court.

But, yes, Leylah. like you wrote, appears to have more upside and to be able to sustain a higher level.

The future for the two of them will be interesting.

[jimlosaltos]

It looks like Emma has fallen off and Leylah is keeping her higher level of play. I really hope that the two of them stick around. Ash Barty is the closest we have gotten to a consistent women's player these days. Everyone else seems to come and go. Serena might have one good run left in her.

Not sure if you have any thoughts on the latest play from Emma and Leylah at Indian Wells.

Sadly, I didn't see Emma. That's twice I've gone to an event hoping to see her and she's lost in the first round. I believe she has not yet won a (is it a match or set?) on the WTA tour. She played in a Chicago 125 but apparently that's not considered "the tour". To win a major with zero tour wins is ... perplexing.

Leylah, though, continues to impress. She's making a routine out of losing the first set to very good players, yet not wilting, coming back and often winning. Even in her exit from Indian Wells, Leylah broke Rogers when she served for the match before losing the tiebreak.

Not sure I want to say this out loud yet, but I've got this feeling Leylah is going to do better than Emma, at least for a while. She's ready to compete with anyone right now. Scrappy. Finds a way to win.

[arturohernandez]

Well put. So much had to happen along the way for these two to meet in the final.

Leylah was like an icebreaker, moving through the top seeds clearing the way, then Emma smoothly sailed into the open seas.

If they didn't both becomes millionaires as teenagers I'd feel a bit sorry for Leylah

It will be interesting to see which sustains this level of play better in the near term.

It looks like Emma has fallen off and Leylah is keeping her higher level of play. I really hope that the two of them stick around. Ash Barty is the closest we have gotten to a consistent women's player these days. Everyone else seems to come and go. Serena might have one good run left in her.

Not sure if you have any thoughts on the latest play from Emma and Leylah at Indian Wells.

[jimlosaltos]

I think Emma doesn't have to work as hard to win her points. She is closer to an ideal height in women's tennis. I would put it at somewhere between 5'7" to 5'10". Ideally, 5'9" if we wan't to be very specific. Leylah is not tall at all. She needs to take the ball super early because she cannot be pushed back. Emma has more leeway. She can play offensively and defensively. Leylah has to play offense. There is no choice. I think she has a great chance to win at RG. She did win the junior RG.

Emma made it look easy but honestly I am not sure that anyone could have handled the level she was playing at the US Open.

It reminded me of Sampras in 1990 (?). I mean he was just on fire. He cooled off for a couple of years after that.

It was so odd to see two women playing each other in a final that could have been a junior final just two years ago. The odds were long and someone might have gotten rich off of this one.

I heard from an inside source that Osaka's older sister had to stop for similar reasons. She would just breakdown crying during matches. It was just too painful to play.

It looks like it might run in the family.

Well put. So much had to happen along the way for these two to meet in the final.

Leylah was like an icebreaker, moving through the top seeds clearing the way, then Emma smoothly sailed into the open seas.

If they didn't both becomes millionaires as teenagers I'd feel a bit sorry for Leylah

It will be interesting to see which sustains this level of play better in the near term.

[arturohernandez]

Great catch on this thread arturohernandez in mid-tourney. Although I didn't watch a single women's tennis match at the Open this year and I only caught tidbits here and there...your post was rather a premonition considering the final outcome. I think that Leylah was actually a bigger story than this Brit Emma. Leylah had a much tougher road to hoe and her take down of Naomi Osaka was a highlight as far as I am concerned. Osaka should probably be confined to quarters pending psychiatric observation and she is showing some serious symptoms of real mental issues. But this young lady Fernandez was the real heroine as she was taking down the big names while Emma had a bunch of outliers. I wonder how much fatigue played into her performance in the final.

https://www.wtatennis.com/players/326735/leylah-fernandez/matches

I think Emma doesn't have to work as hard to win her points. She is closer to an ideal height in women's tennis. I would put it at somewhere between 5'7" to 5'10". Ideally, 5'9" if we wan't to be very specific. Leylah is not tall at all. She needs to take the ball super early because she cannot be pushed back. Emma has more leeway. She can play offensively and defensively. Leylah has to play offense. There is no choice. I think she has a great chance to win at RG. She did win the junior RG.

Emma made it look easy but honestly I am not sure that anyone could have handled the level she was playing at the US Open.

It reminded me of Sampras in 1990 (?). I mean he was just on fire. He cooled off for a couple of years after that.

It was so odd to see two women playing each other in a final that could have been a junior final just two years ago. The odds were long and someone might have gotten rich off of this one.

I heard from an inside source that Osaka's older sister had to stop for similar reasons. She would just breakdown crying during matches. It was just too painful to play.

It looks like it might run in the family.

[don_budge]

Like everyone else I have been watching Leylah Fernandez. She seems to take the ball very early on both sides. Her forehand is super compact and yet it appears to catch the opponent by surprise. According to US Open.org they cite the following stats for her against Kerber:

"In total, Fernandez hit 213 forehands in the match, 108 creating the same two patterns of play.

1. The forehand crosscourt (60)

2. The forehand down the line (48)

These two patterns forced Kerber into defense on 43 occasions"

I immediately thought about Macci, BG and the type 3 (or ATP) forehand.

It looks like a Type 3 to me but I wanted to get expert opinions.

Here is a link to her forehand (I am not associated with this company. Just not a lot of links out there.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmbFPM7y3-M

If so, is it the type 3 that makes it easier for her to change direction? My thinking is that the compactness allows her to redirect more easily since the racket is taking a shorter path back and a more linear path forward. In a type 1 or 2 forehand the racket has to come around in a circle and so it makes it harder to change the direction of the ball.

So, two questions, Is it a type 3 and if so, is this the reason she can change direction so well?

I see Henin and Federer in that forehand.

Just wondering.

Not buying into the rebellion angle.

https://www.wtatennis.com/players/32...ducanu/matches

But statistically speaking you would have to conclude that Raducanu's win at the 2021 U. S. Open was a rare event. If you look at her match history there is no way that you could have predicted that outcome. I wonder if there was a big payout anywhere. It is so statistically improbable I find it somewhat suspicious...but that is without having watched any of the play. Even so...she never had to play someone ranked in the top ten. What the hell happened to the rest of the field? She played a couple of players in the top twenty but the rest of them were basically outliers.

On the other side of the draw, Leila had to power through the #2, #3, #5 and #17 ranked players. She probably would have rendered Raducanu a non story or at least a story about a runner-up if she hadn't been depleted by the four three set matches in a row.

It will be interesting going forwards to see how Raducanu reacts to her unlikely win at the Open. The attention that is going to be bestowed upon her would make any human dizzy. The media attention. The expectations. Perhaps she will join Osaki in the mental tennis ward. It is going to be a tough act to follow.

Great catch on this thread arturohernandez in mid-tourney. Although I didn't watch a single women's tennis match at the Open this year and I only caught tidbits here and there...your post was rather a premonition considering the final outcome. I think that Leylah was actually a bigger story than this Brit Emma. Leylah had a much tougher road to hoe and her take down of Naomi Osaka was a highlight as far as I am concerned. Osaka should probably be confined to quarters pending psychiatric observation and she is showing some serious symptoms of real mental issues. But this young lady Fernandez was the real heroine as she was taking down the big names while Emma had a bunch of outliers. I wonder how much fatigue played into her performance in the final.

https://www.wtatennis.com/players/326735/leylah-fernandez/matches