Is the reverse forehand a feasible way to teach some aspects of the ATP forehand?

[arturohernandez]

Just went out to hit with my daughter today. The reverse definitely causes sidespin. I shanked several of her shots that hit off the frame. I can see why it is a good weapon to have. If you mix it in, it can throw off your opponent. Much like slice and topspin do on the forehand side.

[doctorhl]

I was told by a Spanish coach that a one handed backhand should come across the side of the ball a bit. He said it creates sidespin more than a two hander does. Not that a two hander cannot do it, just that the release of the racket across the body lends itself to sidespin more for a 1hbh.

For a short ball, it would simply be a bit more exaggerated.

I found this video of the comparison of a short angle one and two hander. In my eyes, the one hander seems to be freer and creates more sidespin.

But maybe I am seeing things.

https://youtu.be/KFWJQAHUD60?t=209

Totally agree, as I have rear-viewed, up close, an elite right hand 1hbh, topspin down- the- line that broke almost a foot towards the sideline. Just haven't seen the sidespin break captured in slo mo anywhere.Thanks for the video find.I definitely don't have a full enough backhand grip and shoulder-generated external rotation like this guy. Plus, I see the need for extremely early contact( from a neutral stance) to hit a crosscourt dip against two opponents at net.

[arturohernandez]

Anybody have a clip of a one hand backhand, short angle cross court hit with topspin? Is it a hook with side spin or just topspin? I wonder what the typical finish looks like? The 2 handed bh probably produces that shot much easier with some hookspin guided by the tophand. I remember facing an elite player in doubles who could smack a down the line one hand bh, or keep a deceptive closed stance and somehow hit a crosscourt dip at the last second.

I was told by a Spanish coach that a one handed backhand should come across the side of the ball a bit. He said it creates sidespin more than a two hander does. Not that a two hander cannot do it, just that the release of the racket across the body lends itself to sidespin more for a 1hbh.

For a short ball, it would simply be a bit more exaggerated.

I found this video of the comparison of a short angle one and two hander. In my eyes, the one hander seems to be freer and creates more sidespin.

But maybe I am seeing things.

https://youtu.be/KFWJQAHUD60?t=209

[doctorhl]

Anybody have a clip of a one hand backhand, short angle cross court hit with topspin? Is it a hook with side spin or just topspin? I wonder what the typical finish looks like? The 2 handed bh probably produces that shot much easier with some hookspin guided by the tophand. I remember facing an elite player in doubles who could smack a down the line one hand bh, or keep a deceptive closed stance and somehow hit a crosscourt dip at the last second.

[arturohernandez]

BG would probably have to answer that question. You may be on to something. Nadal is certainly to me the gold standard(along with Fed) of the independent arm action.

I also noticed that Fed has reversed more forehands when he switched to the bigger racket head size. He doesn't do it as much as Nadal but I have a sense that he does it more than he did earlier in his career.

In any case, here is Fed's reverse. To me the difference is just how he finishes. If you take the feeling of this acceleration and just paste it onto the regular finish, then you get something like a gateway to an ATP forehand.

https://youtu.be/eWWW9wb7n4w

Does anyone know how to ask BG for his thoughts directly?

[arturohernandez]

That is an interesting question. I know one thing though, Nadal definitely expands the court for his opponent with his hook forehand, to me like no one else ever has. He sends players retrieving balls to areas of the court they are not familiar with. He uses it most obviously to go crosscut to his right handed opponents backhand, but he also uses it to bring the ball back in when hitting to the deuce side. Sampras and others do it on running forehands. Nadal stands alone to me using it more often that not, pretty much his standard forehand. My theory is the over the head finish is a necessary component to getting to the outside of the ball to get the hook spin.

So I thought about this today and went out and revived my reverse forehand. The first thing I noticed is that I can hit the ball much higher in the air and it will land in. I hit one against my son that landed just on the sideline and bounced up over his head. He had to jump and try and hit a backhand overhead (he is a lefty).

So, yes! It does create angles that are very unusual. My daughter tried it again in the morning and again, there was more acceleration and the ball kind of kicks away from you when it is hit to the right handed forehand.

I had my son hit it as a lefty. It just runs you out to the backhand side. So the hook forehand is lethal.

All of us hit the traditional forehand first. We all finished across the body for a long time. Then Nadal brought the reverse to a new level.

So maybe hitting a traditional forehand helps with all the coiling and learning to load etc. Then the reverse is the cherry on top. The way to learn to really create great angles and change the trajectory of the ball.

We even see Nadal flatten it out sometimes especially inside out.

Larry Ellison commented on the sidespin when he hit with Nadal at IW. It's what he thought was really bothering Fed more.

It looks like he is not the only one who probably feels that way.

[stroke]

To me, Borg is swinging the racket at the ball whereas with Nadal you can visibly see the shoulder joint engaging and the independent arm movement (in terms of a type 3) taking place. I am not sure Borg creates anything like the same torque/lag. I am not convinced learning the reverse forehand encourages more independent arm movement - probably more independent arm movement without engaging the body if you don't watch it. I can certainly see it going wrong if the player is not advanced enough.

The best guys to give definite answers to this kind of stuff are John and BG.

It's an interesting question you have posed, though. And a great video find by doctorhl.

Well said

[stotty]

My original question was whether the reverse teaches more independent arm movement, like the one used in an ATP forehand.

Looking at Borg, he seems to accelerate the arm more independently. To me it feels like it might be a good exercise to help teach independent arm movement.

Just wondering if you guys think that might be the case.

To me, Borg is swinging the racket at the ball whereas with Nadal you can visibly see the shoulder joint engaging and the independent arm movement (in terms of a type 3) taking place. I am not sure Borg creates anything like the same torque/lag. I am not convinced learning the reverse forehand encourages more independent arm movement - probably more independent arm movement without engaging the body if you don't watch it. I can certainly see it going wrong if the player is not advanced enough.

The best guys to give definite answers to this kind of stuff are John and BG.

It's an interesting question you have posed, though. And a great video find by doctorhl.

[stroke]

My original question was whether the reverse teaches more independent arm movement, like the one used in an ATP forehand.

Looking at Borg, he seems to accelerate the arm more independently. To me it feels like it might be a good exercise to help teach independent arm movement.

Just wondering if you guys think that might be the case.

BG would probably have to answer that question. You may be on to something. Nadal is certainly to me the gold standard(along with Fed) of the independent arm action.

[stroke]

Super interesting discussion. On the sidespin thing. Actually, this explains why Sampras used it on the run so much. He could hook it into the court when hitting down the line. This also explains why the inside in is so hard to get to. It spins away from the player.

The sidespin thing got me thinking about physics here. If the ball is moving down and across, is it not moving along a longer curve. If it is moving more up and down, then the curve is shorter. So it allows you to hit sidespin which throws the opponent off. It also follows a longer curve. This, I think means, you are buying even more space for yourself.

Maybe a bonafide physicist can give their opinion.

Meanwhile, do I have my physics right? Does the sidespin and topspin of a reverse give it a longer path in the air and thus create greater margin than topspin alone?

That is an interesting question. I know one thing though, Nadal definitely expands the court for his opponent with his hook forehand, to me like no one else ever has. He sends players retrieving balls to areas of the court they are not familiar with. He uses it most obviously to go crosscut to his right handed opponents backhand, but he also uses it to bring the ball back in when hitting to the deuce side. Sampras and others do it on running forehands. Nadal stands alone to me using it more often that not, pretty much his standard forehand. My theory is the over the head finish is a necessary component to getting to the outside of the ball to get the hook spin.

[arturohernandez]

Thanks! That's a lovely clip and comparison. I still think Borg's movement is right up there.

It's interesting to compare Borg's forehand with Nadal's. Nadal has deeper loading and really sinks down and drives up. Borg's forehand is a lighter version. I think wooden rackets player's tended to have the racket mostly on edge throughout the backswing and forward swing...very different to Nadal's. Borg had some tilt to his racket face perhaps whereas McEnroe and Connors had none.

My original question was whether the reverse teaches more independent arm movement, like the one used in an ATP forehand.

Looking at Borg, he seems to accelerate the arm more independently. To me it feels like it might be a good exercise to help teach independent arm movement.

Just wondering if you guys think that might be the case.

[arturohernandez]

Super interesting discussion. On the sidespin thing. Actually, this explains why Sampras used it on the run so much. He could hook it into the court when hitting down the line. This also explains why the inside in is so hard to get to. It spins away from the player.

The sidespin thing got me thinking about physics here. If the ball is moving down and across, is it not moving along a longer curve. If it is moving more up and down, then the curve is shorter. So it allows you to hit sidespin which throws the opponent off. It also follows a longer curve. This, I think means, you are buying even more space for yourself.

Maybe a bonafide physicist can give their opinion.

Meanwhile, do I have my physics right? Does the sidespin and topspin of a reverse give it a longer path in the air and thus create greater margin than topspin alone?

[stroke]

Thanks! That's a lovely clip and comparison. I still think Borg's movement is right up there.

It's interesting to compare Borg's forehand with Nadal's. Nadal has deeper loading and really sinks down and drives up. Borg's forehand is a lighter version. I think wooden rackets player's tended to have the racket mostly on edge during the forehand swing in the run up to striking the ball...very different to Nadal's.

I think the biggest difference is the lag, the angle of the forearm to the racquet shaft at its deepest point. To me, it is significant.

[stotty]

Stotty: A clip of Borg reverse finish: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7AVKMtge4aA

Thanks! That's a lovely clip and comparison. I still think Borg's movement is right up there.

It's interesting to compare Borg's forehand with Nadal's. Nadal has deeper loading and really sinks down and drives up. Borg's forehand is a lighter version. I think wooden rackets player's tended to have the racket mostly on edge throughout the backswing and forward swing...very different to Nadal's. Borg had some tilt to his racket face perhaps whereas McEnroe and Connors had none.

[doctorhl]

It's a handy shot to learn for when a player is running wide and slightly late to the ball. It's not all that new. Borg did it a lot. It's not something I like to teach to the point where it becomes a player's basic shot. It works for Rafa but for most players it's a shot best resorted to under given circumstances.

JY and stroke's observations on spin levels are interesting. I didn't know that.

Stotty: A clip of Borg reverse finish: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7AVKMtge4aA