Tsitsipas forehand

[BrianGordon]

Hi Rob -

I'd stay with 90 degrees at the unit turn - while the backswing is positional there should still be some motion continuity between the end of the backswing and initiation of the forward swing, and it is more efficient for movement to the ball.

The kinetic chain is a convenient generalization but not that useful to detailed understanding of the strokes - the devil is in the details.

The problem with "club hacks" learning this stroke is that they try to copy what they see without understanding what is happening - that understanding makes it attainable for many with some work and guidance.

As glacier said - stay with it - to me the pursuit of the perfect swing is far more rewarding and transformational than a compromised approach winning a round or two in the next club championship. Guess that bias is not so surprising to those who have suffered through my work lol. BG

[dimbleby69]

glacier guy...it's great to get encouragement from someone who has been down the same path! Many thanks. Clearly we feel the same way about JY's and BG's work (which of course informs Macci's).

I have seen myself on film before (serving) and so am used to the reality-shock to an extent. The failed footage from the weekend may help brace me for the full embarrassment to come.

Just started immersing myself in the Archive images, and getting used to the sensation of letting them wash over me. The commonalities that JY talks about inevitably impress themselves on the mind more vividly. I've got a post coming about the Tsitsipas forehand and my misperceptions about it and the forehand in general.

I'm hoping that by osmosis some of the footwork in the videos will seep in. Always a weakness.

Thanks again

regards

Rob

[dimbleby69]

As glacier said - stay with it - to me the pursuit of the perfect swing is far more rewarding and transformational than a compromised approach winning a round or two in the next club championship. Guess that bias is not so surprising to those who have suffered through my work lol. BG

Brian, I shouldn't be shocked to read such sentiments from you, but I am shocked to find that, together with gg's comments, I have found both posts very affirming(!). I have no intention of hacking my days out playing the same way as I did the ones that came before them, and have always been trying to get an ounce of improvement from somewhere, even if only from trial and error. This site offers the priceless (for me)* chance to understand why I miss, rather than making compromises for 'results' in match play. I'm always bemused that my club peers don't feel the same way as I do, but when I hear the purist in you talking about the pursuit of the perfect swing, and find myself agreeing with you, perhaps I shouldn't be.

I'm so small (5' 4", and lightweight with it) that better biomechanics and technique is the only route to competing properly in any case. I'm also betting that improved biomechanics will reduce injury risk and keep me playing for longer.

On the subject of biomechanics...

"I'd stay with 90 degrees at the unit turn - while the backswing is positional there should still be some motion continuity between the end of the backswing and initiation of the forward swing, and it is more efficient for movement to the ball."

The phrase 'motion continuity' is highly suggestive, and is getting to the heart of my confusions on the forehand in general. I think I basically hit as though the Unit Turn is the end of my backswing. In the Archive side-views of Tsitsipas (which I watched but couldn't see the wood for the trees) there is a fleeting moment when his off-hand moves from being parallel with the court and moves to point forward. This coincides with his racket arm straightening out in the opposite direction behind him just before it starts forward. I take it this is his moment of 'motion continuity' just before the start of the forward swing. I suspect it's effectively absent from my shot, and that I should have a widening angle between my upper arm and forearm at this moment, even though I'm not going to make it to 180 degrees, or anywhere near.

Thanks again for your insights and encouragement

regards
Rob


*JY, please don't take this as encouragement to increase the subscription costs.

[doctorhl]

dimbleby69: I would dig a little deeper into the relationship of the Eastern grip and semi western grip and how they alter your flow into the straight arm position and how they affect the distance between your waist and the ball at contact. The timing of the footwork will alter a little between the two distances.

[johnyandell]

Rob, Not in the future plan!

[glacierguy]

Rob, thanks for your kind words. The one phrase which has stuck in my mind for the ATP Type III forehand (and I think it was from Rick Macci), which is ridiculously simple, but critical nevertheless is "hips make flips". You'll probably come across it in your research on TPN. The more you understand the Type III, the more this little phrase makes sense. And it's easy to remember on court!

[dimbleby69]

dimbleby69: I would dig a little deeper into the relationship of the Eastern grip and semi western grip and how they alter your flow into the straight arm position and how they affect the distance between your waist and the ball at contact. The timing of the footwork will alter a little between the two distances.

Will do. I will be revisiting again BG's aforementioned article mentioned in post #14 (link below), but I don't remember other discussions of the grip implications on the flow into the straight arm in my reading on the site. That and the insight about spacing between waist and ball at contact sound hard won – many thanks. I will be scouring the Forum as well as the rest of the site.

Thanks again doctorhl

regards
Rob

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/biomechanics/brian_gordon/developing_an_atp_forehand_part_02/index_2.html?new=true

[dimbleby69]

Rob, Not in the future plan!

Doubly good news, given the Cost of Living crisis we're going through (this side of the Atlantic at any rate...I'm assuming you're not immune over there).

regards
Rob

[dimbleby69]

Rob, thanks for your kind words. The one phrase which has stuck in my mind for the ATP Type III forehand (and I think it was from Rick Macci), which is ridiculously simple, but critical nevertheless is "hips make flips". You'll probably come across it in your research on TPN. The more you understand the Type III, the more this little phrase makes sense. And it's easy to remember on court!

gg, as is becoming clearer to me, I am focused (fixated?) on the push up from my foot/knee as the source of the rotation that will create the flip in its wake. Hopefully this model is being refined as I gain more understanding. Great line from Rick Macci. I will definitely be taking “Hips make flips” on to the court with me going forward. Many thanks.

regards
Rob

[doctorhl]

Hips are the key, but don't overdo it. Lead arm on the forehand acts as brake on early or over rotation of the shoulders( caused by excessive hip rotation) prior to contact.. But then everything must release to avoid deceleration(and avoid injury). Loaded front foot(or sometimes rear foot) pivots to varying degrees to help in the release. Thie timing of this kinetic chain sequence gets compressed if you have to run to meet the ball or if excessive incoming speed handcuffs you. Some deal with the timing differences by slightly elongating or shortening the backswing. Others seem to deal with it by slighlty altering the contact point. Alcarez is a poster boy for one who doesnt seem to vary his highly compressed chain sequence........but, he has the feet/conditioning!!

[arturohernandez]

Hi Everyone, I feel like I lost a whole thread here. I saw Tsitispas's forehand. It looks very solid and nice to me.

Can someone post any video about what the decision points might have been? How their forehands were tweaked or changed according to BG and JY views?

Sorry, I am losing the words and wonder what part the discussion is focused on.

It's been a hectic time and I am just trying to recover my love for tennis.

Some video would really help!

[jimlosaltos]

Hi Everyone, I feel like I lost a whole thread here. I saw Tsitispas's forehand. It looks very solid and nice to me.

Can someone post any video about what the decision points might have been? How their forehands were tweaked or changed according to BG and JY views?

Sorry, I am losing the words and wonder what part the discussion is focused on.

It's been a hectic time and I am just trying to recover my love for tennis.

Some video would really help!

Trying to recall how this started.

Here is a link to TPN's vids

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Stefanos_Tsitsipas_HD_HS/index.html

All I can find from the forum's dates to 2018, but at least that provides a baseline for whatever BG to JY have seen.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/75102-interactive-forum-november-2018-stefano-tsitsispas-forehand

My note: After Tsitsipas's December surgery in Mexico (I believe it was a bursa sac), he simplified his serve a bit and switched from all co-poly strings to hybrid, supposedly all to aid his elbow. No idea if forehand changes were similarly motivated, just throwing that out. Seemed to take him time (understandably) to regain confidence and swing out.

[dimbleby69]

Hips are the key, but don't overdo it. Lead arm on the forehand acts as brake on early or over rotation of the shoulders( caused by excessive hip rotation) prior to contact.. But then everything must release to avoid deceleration(and avoid injury). Loaded front foot(or sometimes rear foot) pivots to varying degrees to help in the release. Thie timing of this kinetic chain sequence gets compressed if you have to run to meet the ball or if excessive incoming speed handcuffs you. Some deal with the timing differences by slightly elongating or shortening the backswing. Others seem to deal with it by slighlty altering the contact point. Alcarez is a poster boy for one who doesnt seem to vary his highly compressed chain sequence........but, he has the feet/conditioning!!

Hi doctor,

I've been ruminating over your last post for a while. Many thanks. After my burst of activity on this thread I had a back spasm episode (first time that's happened while actually playing) and for a while it looked like I would be in for another long lay-off (which means I spend even more time on TPN than on the court).

Managed to get back to playing (one hour for each of the last 2 weeks...) and...actually got some video footage. It was shot on a GoPro, and I'm in the process of discovering that my hardware can't cope with the files/4k video editing. I hope to get something easier to handle on an iphone soon.

The role of the lead arm seems to present me with some difficulties. I've noticed on serve videos of myself that it doesn't pull into the torso and just hangs out there as a break on rotation. Something similar happens on quite a few of my forehands. My 1 hour/week has been with a lesson with a coach (owns the GoPro) and he was trying to get me to 'let' my shoulder go further through the shot and round. Timing of release and when/how to pivot are an issue, so your last message was on the money. I'm left wondering whether this is contributing to the back problems I've been having. I had high hopes of Pat Cash's 2nd article providing insight into mechanisms of injury, but though both of them came from an authoritative source they were skimpy on detail.

Playing the GoPro files in Quicktime and holding down the arrow keys has allowed some slo-mo analysis. It's not all bad, but of course there's the reality of how frequently there's late preparation, and therefore contact. This thread has discussed straightening the arm. On the footage I was surprised to see that I seem to have my arm straight at the 'flip' quite often, but then it starts to bend as it moves to contact, which is more or less the opposite of where I thought I was at the start of the discussion. Having played only intermittently over the winter, and spent more time on TPN, I suspect it's going to take a while for me to get my bearings on court properly. No better time to re-set, in a way. Just need some usable video.

Thanks again for your last post

regards
Rob

[dimbleby69]

Hi Everyone, I feel like I lost a whole thread here. I saw Tsitispas's forehand. It looks very solid and nice to me.

Can someone post any video about what the decision points might have been? How their forehands were tweaked or changed according to BG and JY views?

Sorry, I am losing the words and wonder what part the discussion is focused on.

It's been a hectic time and I am just trying to recover my love for tennis.

Some video would really help!

Hi arturo,

sorry if this thread seems a bit off-topic/unfinished. Perhaps it will make more sense in time, although if that depends on me providing video we can say that it has travelled a long way away from Tsitsipas's forehand.

regards
Rob

[doctorhl]

Hi doctor,

I've been ruminating over your last post for a while. Many thanks. After my burst of activity on this thread I had a back spasm episode (first time that's happened while actually playing) and for a while it looked like I would be in for another long lay-off (which means I spend even more time on TPN than on the court).

Managed to get back to playing (one hour for each of the last 2 weeks...) and...actually got some video footage. It was shot on a GoPro, and I'm in the process of discovering that my hardware can't cope with the files/4k video editing. I hope to get something easier to handle on an iphone soon.

The role of the lead arm seems to present me with some difficulties. I've noticed on serve videos of myself that it doesn't pull into the torso and just hangs out there as a break on rotation. Something similar happens on quite a few of my forehands. My 1 hour/week has been with a lesson with a coach (owns the GoPro) and he was trying to get me to 'let' my shoulder go further through the shot and round. Timing of release and when/how to pivot are an issue, so your last message was on the money. I'm left wondering whether this is contributing to the back problems I've been having. I had high hopes of Pat Cash's 2nd article providing insight into mechanisms of injury, but though both of them came from an authoritative source they were skimpy on detail.

Playing the GoPro files in Quicktime and holding down the arrow keys has allowed some slo-mo analysis. It's not all bad, but of course there's the reality of how frequently there's late preparation, and therefore contact. This thread has discussed straightening the arm. On the footage I was surprised to see that I seem to have my arm straight at the 'flip' quite often, but then it starts to bend as it moves to contact, which is more or less the opposite of where I thought I was at the start of the discussion. Having played only intermittently over the winter, and spent more time on TPN, I suspect it's going to take a while for me to get my bearings on court properly. No better time to re-set, in a way. Just need some usable video.

Thanks again for your last post

regards
Rob

Rob: I compressed two lumbar discs moving to ATP groundstrokes from old school groundstrokes by forcing speed into a new rotational and not building a foundation.When you are properly loaded, you won’t feel any vibration in any of the body joints if you sequence properly which includes not rushing any segment before the previous segment transfer. For many that feeling is never experienced properly because of poor prior shot recovery footwork and poor visual anticipation. Make sure recovery and anticipation are in good shape before learning new footwork for a new stroke.

1.Video your recovery steps and anticipation.
2.Video the loading process footwork (footwork from ready position to ball contact).Pay particular attention to the FiIRST step from the ready position. #1 and #2 are the building blocks for #3.
3. The perfect swing is never rushed and therefore has no joint vibration. It’s hard to learn and sequence a new stroke under time pressure. Getting these things right first might make it a little easier for you insert and master the new swing technique. Instructor slow toss gives us time to learn proper, unrushed sequencing, but as soon as we add recovery.and footwork loading under time pressure, things break down quickly.