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  • Stan Warwinka's backhand ...

    Interesting article for those of us trying to develop a player with a one handed backhand style. Thanks, enjoyed it.

  • #2
    The unit turn and the wiper

    I've been working with Scott Murphy on my one-hander for a few years now. I'm finally getting to where I've got a much better unit turn than when we started and it has had the biggest impact on my one-hander. Just a couple of weeks ago, Scott talked me through what you're calling the wiper and a fuller release on the follow-through. The biggest effect for me was to feel that I was really letting go through the shot. Just the act of considering such a full release seemed to result in greater racquet head speed through contact. I'm having a ball hitting my one-hander now and now have to remember that the slice remains important and I can't come over every single ball (as much as I'd like to).

    Thanks for such an excellent piece John!

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    • #3
      Funny how the New York Times started to screw up everything once it started replacing the top editor with morons. I liked the one who bought my breakfast the best.

      The part about grip is different from the section I quoted today in A New Year's Serve. JY's could be better.

      This article may answer my perennial question about what John McEnroe meant when he criticized Greg Rusedski's one-hander for not keeping elbow in.

      I'm thinking of a full swing in which racket through its roll goes faster and farther than the hand.
      Last edited by bottle; 02-23-2015, 10:24 AM.

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      • #4
        Bob,
        Thanks!

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        • #5
          Yahoo!!
          And notice how many two handers are NOW focusing on the one handed slice, almost every single one of them. Nasal, Djokovic, Cilic, Nishikori, Murray, Kyrgios, Raonic. It's like a new clothing style. Only it's a new stroke style.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by bottle View Post
            I'm thinking of a full swing in which racket through its roll goes faster and farther than the hand.
            Okay only if such a roll happens BEFORE contact. I use to think Wawrinka rolled during contact. Now I think he and every good one hander double ends toward the target and through contact and a ways beyond contact. Wanna argue, someone? Tell me it ain't so.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by hockeyscout View Post
              Interesting article for those of us trying to develop a player with a one handed backhand style. Thanks, enjoyed it.
              I liked this article the first time around and even more the second. Using the visual's from the video...it's tennis made easy. A picture is worth a thousand words.

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              • #8
                Why the apostrophe in "visual's?" That's CRAZY!!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Stan Wawrinka Backhand...hockeyscout's collar bone comment


                  Originally posted by hockeyscout View Post

                  Collarbone above the net, is a simple term I would use with a ten year old.

                  To often, players drop the collarbone to the ball (especially low balls). They simply cannot get there hip into the right slot position to play the ball properly.

                  Deep squats, its a real issue for this generation of kids because they are always sitting in class, playing video games or doing things that produce bad posture.

                  I NEVER allow my two kids to EVER use a ball bin to pick up balls. Each and every ball they enter they get into position on, and practice a shadow stroke and in one smooth motion pick up the ball. Four at a time, pop, pop, pop and pop, and they go right through the ball as they are picking it up, and have there collarbone going over the net as they finish. Most kids you get doing that drill, and they are so set up badly that they will face their collarbone and eyes to the ground. Ideally, with a high end player they will look at the back of the ball (and not the top), if they are seeing the back of the ball and moving there hand through the ball and finishing with a nice engaged extension of there shoulder, you know you are on the right track.

                  You played baseball, you understand how good someone like Ozzy Smith is picking up a ground ball and in one motion throwing to first base. That same motion needs to be thoughtfully built into tennis players, and if it is, I think the hands are automatically 100 percent better.

                  Or, often times you see a player running for a ball wide or short, and they will reach. Ozzie Smith isn't reaching - he is getting his hips to positioning, and eliptically getting into the right spot each and every time (close to what Federer is doing). Anyways, that's not technically reaching for the ball, its just poor hip placement. So many players refuse to run through the ball, and they love to reach. Reaching is a result of hips being to far back, and the athlete thinking with there shoulder. Often times you will even see athletes throw that racket in behind them and think they can generate power off their rotator cuff. Its a major issue in womans tennis for a number of reasons.


                  Originally posted by don_budge View Post
                  The Sternum and The Clavicle...Keep the Chest on the Ball

                  Yeah...good stuff. I spend more time talking about the feet, hips and shoulders than I do about the racquet. Chest on the ball. I speak of taking the racquet back with the sternum. The collar bone is an excellent cueing point and I will start using this immediately. The clavicle makes an excellent line to work with and I am always trying to get the student to imagine lines in their setups and swings. When I am talking to students about their shoulders they sometimes have a difficult time thinking of them working together. This is particularly true when I am teaching them the volley...it's kind of sickening watching them trying to dip a shoulder into the ball one at a time instead of them working together. But square the collar bone on the ball...we'll see.

                  The best golf tip I ever got was simply to "keep your chest on the ball". I'll never forget how later on in the week I shot 67 in the final round of our league championships to win. I was 53 in a 35 and over league. Playing "down" as usual. The opposite of sand bagging. I was thinking sternum and the clavicle fits right in with this concept.

                  Your damn right about Ozzie Smith...my father played shortstop in the Detroit Tiger system. I just love that shortstop position. Each move is dependent upon the move before it. If you don't get down into position how in the hell can you expect to make a good fluid turn to the ball.

                  Thanks for that explanation.

                  The comment regarding the collar bone from the "Speed and a Tennis Player" thread started by klacr really resonated with me. I have always tried to impress upon my students the importance of the shoulders and the sternum in the golf swing. The collar bone provides an excellent line from which to draw the lines of alignment fundamental in the student's mind.

                  https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...inka_backhand/

                  If you go to the article and take a look at the video visual provided by John with the caption "Closed stance alignment of the feet, shoulders, racket" you can substitute collar bone for shoulders. Here is a beautiful example of my "3 lines of alignment" theory that I have maintained. Look how Stan Wawrinka in the very back of his backswing, which is the position that I refer to as "get in position". "Get in position" is the point where the transition is made from backswing to forward swing.

                  More than once I have used this fantastic music video...Roger Federer "Forehand Not Gone" to make my point of "3 lines of alignment". Federer throughout these swings manages to manipulate his body position on the ball with these lines. Now looking at it from the perspective of collar bone it enhances the alignment visual.

                  https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...one/index.html

                  I find that we must pay some real attention to this in our teaching of the game. The role of the collar bone. It is a convenient line to draw for the student in their alignment. As Wawrinka is taking his racquet back with his whole body (unit turn) his racquet finds itself line parallel to his collar bone. Then with extraordinary balance he places his front foot on another parallel line. Now as he goes forwards he initiates his swing by turning his hips and then the collar bone starts to rotate with the parallel line of the racquet intact...the racquet arm going along for the ride. Once the rockets have fired from the body rotation the arm and finally the racquet are zooming through the path of the ball with his racquet finishing on the other side of his body...as does the forehand follow through.

                  The next video visual provided with the caption "Early straight arm position na additional torso rotation" stops the action precisely where I refer to "get in position". Excellent shot of this position...perfect. See the three lines...collar bone, racquet and feet. I used to say shoulders...but shoulders is a plural and perhaps it is easier for the student to understand a singular.

                  This analysis is consistent with the best swing thought I was ever blessed with in golf. Keep your chest on the ball. Keep your collar bone on the ball. Just look at the amazing visual in the next video with the caption "Extension of the forward swing with the arm straight and the wrist at eye level". See how Wawrinka keeps his chest on the ball at impact...and after launching.

                  Good stuff John. I remember when this article was published. I liked it then. I like it even more now when observing the role of Stan Wawrinka's collar bone. Like reading a Dostoyevsky novel it is best to reread as soon as you have finished...to understand the context in its entirety. For better understanding. What a simple thought...line up your racquet with your collarbone and start the two together in the beginning of the swing. Keep your chest on the ball and let the arm swing through. Great cue hockeyscout...I am not certain that this is how you meant to apply it but in my mind it has really turned some more complicated explanations into simpler ones.

                  Using the reference point of the collar bone certainly works for any stroke at ground level. Volleys, groundstrokes and even approach shots.

                  https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov

                  Look and marvel at the use of the "collar bone" in this Federfore forehand. It looks to me as if he lines it up with his collar bone, racquet and feet before teeing off on it. He lines it up and he initiates the pull of the racquet handle down the line of his feet...keeping his chest on the ball. It is a simple game...and it has just made simpler. I love tennis.


                  Last edited by don_budge; 12-14-2016, 01:16 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Yes, you understand where I am getting at now.

                    Here is the next thing you want to watch out for don_budge - you know the positioning of the collarbone now, and how important it is to never throw it around obviously from your backround in other sports. Now, tennis specific methodology I use for our "Armageddon program" - consistency, it comes from good collarbone stability placement.

                    But, another area that is a training fundamental for us is (a) proper elongation and mid-torso flexion. This is complex, and I could write a book on it. But, in a nutshell here is the key - look for the players shirt rising up, and twisting, so that you can see your athletes stomach, belly button and abs, as he is serving or producing a functionally proper groundstroke. Watch Federer, he is brilliant in this regards and if I had to evaluate potential tennis players I would place a ton of value in this observation tool (shirt coming up).

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                    • #11
                      The Head Bone is connected to the neck bone...the neck bone is connected to the collarbone...and so on down to the feet.

                      Originally posted by hockeyscout View Post
                      Yes, you understand where I am getting at now.

                      Here is the next thing you want to watch out for don_budge - you know the positioning of the collarbone now, and how important it is to never throw it around obviously from your backround in other sports. Now, tennis specific methodology I use for our "Armageddon program" - consistency, it comes from good collarbone stability placement.

                      But, another area that is a training fundamental for us is (a) proper elongation and mid-torso flexion. This is complex, and I could write a book on it. But, in a nutshell here is the key - look for the players shirt rising up, and twisting, so that you can see your athletes stomach, belly button and abs, as he is serving or producing a functionally proper groundstroke. Watch Federer, he is brilliant in this regards and if I had to evaluate potential tennis players I would place a ton of value in this observation tool (shirt coming up).
                      Right...as I was walking my dog today I focused at times on the collarbone. I was alternating walking and running...running for a 100 steps. Staying in control of the collarbone was an interesting point of focus. As I become tired I had to concentrate a bit harder in keeping that stable. I have in the past referred to this sort of focus and posturing as the shoulders but for now at least the collarbone has replaced that phraseology in my tennis lexicon.

                      In my exercise routing I have been focusing on a series of 14 abdominal exercises that I do consecutively in repetitions of 15. I am curious about your theory regards "mid-torso flexion" as a result. Care to expound a bit?

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                      • #12
                        don_budge - 15 reps is way to many reps. I'd never do more than three reps. If you can do more than three reps, then you are not in the right alignment and jerking the motion (you may think you are not, but trust me, you are).

                        The MMA kid I worked with was never physically able to do more than three reps of any abdominal excercise I threw at him, as I was very focused on the right alignments and engagements.

                        The head trainer with the National Institute of Sports thought it was nuts to only do three reps, and then I started to train him one on one, and the next day he said he could not get out of bed he was so fried (and, no he was not sore, his nuerolgy just stopped completely due to confusion as I hit areas he'd never trained before).

                        Your dog ... its an interesting point.

                        If you watched the armageddon video, or the zorb ball training you can see my interesting dilema. My ten year old is an okay player, and she's doing some things athletically that are advanced. But, she has an issue of her hip curling up and under her incorrectly. Like most woman, I might add. She's talented, and has terrific strength to overcome bad postural positioning. Hips are an interesting thing Steve ... if they are in the wrong place your hands will never do what you want them to do. Now, this all relates to your dog. When a dog gets beat its tail goes between its legs ... you have heard the saying, and it runs away. That's kind of the issue my oldest daughter has had for years, under pressure her tail goes between her legs so to speak, and her hip is badly out of place forcing her to muscle through things in a way I do not want. Woman tennis players love to muscle through the ball, and for me, its not what I want. A world class trainer can only be great if his athletes are NEVER injured.

                        Now, I can leave things alone and think the world is great - my oldest kid is powerful, and can do very interesting things, but, if I leave everything alone (a) she won't maximize her potential propensity for power generation and rate of force and (b) things will eventually break down due to incorrect joint angles. Coaches think her hips and movement are wonderful, but, I know she is deceiving everyone with her inherint natural strength, and others will pass her when everyone peaks out at 19-23.

                        I see a lot of tennis players with their tail between there legs.

                        Most people do not know what I mean when I talk about hip positioning. Its real important. I will give you a test to do don_budge and you will get everything I am talking about 100 percent.

                        1.

                        Take your tail (your dick), and put it between your legs and squeeze. Just like the dog. Now try and move your hands. You see, you can't. Look at where your knees are positioned, and you will see they are out of alignment, and your hips are in bad position. You will see that at your shirt level is a C - and alignment is off completely. Many, many, many tennis players move like this (I call it the dog with the tail between there legs). Coaches try and correct strokes or movement, but, trust me, nothing will happen.

                        2.

                        Now, if you take your dick, and hold it up towards your collarbone, boom, you have good hip positioning for playing tennis.

                        So, what I preach to athletes is HAPPY DOG! Get that tail up. Its something my oldest one understands now (she loves dogs, and her pincher is named Wimbeldon) - and today she was firing like a happy dog (unlike a few days ago where she was throwing around her hips, and wasn't as concious as she needed to be).

                        I got her to finally be a happy dog with her hip, and everything fell into place much better.

                        The coaches on the other courts wonder what the hell Happy Dog meant, but, for any elite level athlete you'd better have that tail up in the air to be able to move properly. And, most people just don't have that factor, and it needs to be trained into there systems non-stop. Perfect movement results in generally perfect bodies, and if you ever see a guy with a six packs of abs, well shaped legs, great chest, ect, its always a result of the fact he moves perfectly and functionally. Great genetics are a result of people who have natural movement patterning.

                        Neat you were thinking about dogs today as well - humans have lost that primal instinct of moving with all the sitting, cars and bikes, ect. Kids today are fat because they lack functionality, and movement.

                        If I ever have a son he will move perfectly, and his life will be wonderful. If you can dance, move functionally, sing, hunt, fish, enjoy food and play a guitar - the world is your's, and you will have any woman you want without uttering one word.

                        Terrific world class ability in sports will generally occur is you can dance, sing, play an instrument, hunt an animal and do things our ancestors did with terrific ability.

                        Instincts ... everyone who amounts to anything has em in spades, and they can be developed by taking the time to stop in life and watch the grass grow.



                        Last edited by hockeyscout; 12-16-2016, 09:21 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You you are focusing on the collarbone now which is great don_budge. But, just remember the collarbone positioning is an outcome of your hip positioning okay. Sprained ankles are not caused by bad ankles either, its hip position related. If you get into a C posture with the hips like what happens when you get your tail in between you legs so to speak, then that collarbone will dip on you. One thing I would suggest you do with students is put them into a wall squat, hips at 90 degrees against the wall and back and head directly on the wall with there hands in front. Show them how fast they can move there hands. Then, put them into the C posture by dipping there collarbone forward, and making them bend forward at the between the belt and bellybutton area. Get them to try and move there hands. They will see they cannot move or function their hands in this position. So, when you reach, you really lose power, and they get it with this type of cueing and end up being more conscious of dropping the hips and keeping and dipping the bellybutton forward to generate movement of there hip into down position of the squat.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hockeyscout View Post
                            don_budge - 15 reps is way to many reps. I'd never do more than three reps. If you can do more than three reps, then you are not in the right alignment and jerking the motion (you may think you are not, but trust me, you are).

                            The MMA kid I worked with was never physically able to do more than three reps of any abdominal excercise I threw at him, as I was very focused on the right alignments and engagements.

                            The head trainer with the National Institute of Sports thought it was nuts to only do three reps, and then I started to train him one on one, and the next day he said he could not get out of bed he was so fried (and, no he was not sore, his nuerolgy just stopped completely due to confusion as I hit areas he'd never trained before).

                            If I ever have a son he will move perfectly, and his life will be wonderful. If you can dance, move functionally, sing, hunt, fish, enjoy food and play a guitar - the world is your's, and you will have any woman you want without uttering one word.

                            Terrific world class ability in sports will generally occur is you can dance, sing, play an instrument, hunt an animal and do things our ancestors did with terrific ability.

                            Instincts ... everyone who amounts to anything has em in spades, and they can be developed by taking the time to stop in life and watch the grass grow.
                            To be clear...I do 15 exercises 14 times each. I may repeat this twice a day...three at the most. But you are talking about something altogether different and I would appreciate it if you would post something that will show me specifically how to do this. Do it quickly...I am not getting any younger and am currently very motivated. And lucky.

                            If you ever have a son...get him to play the piano. The world of music will be at his beck and call. If he can sing as well...you are right. Every woman will be his for the asking.

                            Instinct...can you feel it? The full moon always makes me crazy! We used to have this wolf...he was 33 percent wolf but he looked and acted nothing other than a wolf. His whole deal was heightened with the waxing of the moon. What a beautiful animal...he broke my heart when he died. The look in his eyes was so knowing. He knew we were about to part...I couldn't accept it until I realized what he was telling me. I let him go. Dylan.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Okay, don_budge explain to me what you actually do right now (excercises) and what injuries you have that you are working around right now.

                              I'd like to see you move a bit, and hit some balls and then I could tell you specifically what areas need balancing - addresssing.

                              You likely don't have a zorb ball, isokinetic machine, ect, so that makes training harder to sort out.

                              I've quit doing a lot of land-based excercises now, and have really focused on putting my athletes into instability scenarios in the pool, or on machines I have personally built with my fishing partner friend Eugene.

                              When you are forced to train children (as I have been in the last five years) you have to really be on top of your game because a lot can go wrong.

                              It pains me seeing so many coaches work with athletes, and injure them for life. Such simple things need to be done, and they can't do it. So many kids are turned off sports because no premium is placed on properly setting up and activating athletes right from day one. They hate gym, PE, and have no enthusiasm.

                              I have learned to train adults like children, and the results have been off the charts. I have the head trainer with the National Institute of Sports lifting a few months ago, and he could not handle 100 pounds on the bench press bar doing the lift properly with the joints in perfect allignment like I wanted. He likes lifting, so I reviewed his form and technique. I think he see's the approach - because, he felt it the next day. Good training tends to leave athletes a bit confused - you have to force them into proper form. And, their bodies need to react to this weird, new stimulis. Often times no one is moving optimally, and its hard to break habits. You've really got to work with mindful and mature people, or its a waste of everyones time and effort. If I was an educator, with a school I would bring in the best track and field coach in the world that money could buy to teach EVERY student (fat, unathletic, slow, big, nerd, stud, whatever) how to optimally move. If you can do that, you're life will be long, prosperous and enjoyable. I'd bet the kids would get better marks, and have better firing brains if you did things like having them stand at there desks to do work, and made it a mandate to teach them how to enjoy moving there bodies. When my oldest daughter went to school she thought it was absolutely bat shit fucking crazy kids were always sitting in there desks all day, and lurching there necks up to look at the chalk board. Fellow parents would say, "We saw you two walking ... again, don't you drive anywhere?" Truth is, my kids always walk, and we never use the car. We used to climb a huge mountain to go to tennis, and for most kids that would have left them inoperable for a few days.

                              I actually no longer believe in putting athletes into weights, but, most of my coaching peers still believe you need to be squat 700, or squat 560 pounds for four reps. I wonder if I will be able to develop an athlete in the next 5-6 years who doesn't need to pound weights, and is naturally strong like a monkey, animal or village boy from Sweden - Norway.

                              ​​​​​​​Its good you have dogs and walk - hopefully your area has mountains, yes?

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