Interactive Forum December 2015 Nick Kyrgios Forehand

[johnyandell]

Bottle is gone

[mentalblock]

kb,

Welcome back and interesting observation. The question i think we all have is whether this increased movement aids external rotation of the arm in the shoulder joint in some way that increases racket speed. Brian Gordon on first blush called it wasted motion but there isn't 3D data on it that I know of to confirm or deny.

Thank you! Just glad to see that Bottle is still around.

kb

[johnyandell]

kb,

Welcome back and interesting observation. The question i think we all have is whether this increased movement aids external rotation of the arm in the shoulder joint in some way that increases racket speed. Brian Gordon on first blush called it wasted motion but there isn't 3D data on it that I know of to confirm or deny.

[mentalblock]

Pointing

Isn't this "pointing" just the "trophy position" turned 90 degrees or so?

kb

[stotty]

Another example of racket tip pointing forwards, and this guy had a bomb of a forehand!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tanceFront.mov

You don't see too many of these anymore. Where the player initiates the stroke by lifting the right elbow up high so the racket dips down. Borg, Lendl and Sampras did it. I always figured it's a method that eats up a little more time than other methods. But when I think about it, each of the aforementioned players had the best forehands of their time. There has to be something good about it...

[nickw]

Another example of racket tip pointing forwards, and this guy had a bomb of a forehand!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/fernando_gonzales/fg_forehand/fg_fh_center/fg_fh_center.html?FGFHCenterNeturalStanceFront.mov

[johnyandell]

Yes! Question of amount of it and timing of it right?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Front%20250fps.mp4

[kfriedman]

Right that backswing and windup are bigger than Rick and Brian Gordon's model for sure. BUT the interesting thing--same with Sock--what is the meaning of pointing the racket tip forward? Does it enhance the effect of the Macci/Gordon flip? Or is it unnecessary motion?

John - with respect to the racket tip pointing forward during the initial prep phase of the forehand stroke I've noticed a number of top pros doing this in varying degrees, for example we see it in Nole's prep. Fed does a version of this but it's more of a turning out of the racket face. His racket face starts out pointing down and in front of his chest and then as he turns his hips and shoulders Fed turns his strings so his palm is facing the right side fence. I've tried copying this prep and it seems to work well providing a better set up for more topspin as I pull the arm and hand forward to contact. Does this make sense?

[nickw]

Interesting to see these variations, and to see whether they become more common going forwards.

I think the racket tip pointing forwards must be adding to the effect of the flip, making that position with the tip could be likened to pulling the slingshot a fraction further back before letting go!

I have to agree Kyrgios is not as extreme as Sock, and as I commented on the Sock thread, these boosted flip variations don't appear as efficient as the Macci/Gordon model, even if they do generate more pace/spin. Timing must be harder to achieve if the ordinary tennis player were to copy them.

If these more extreme flips are putting extra stress on the body, then how much? Enough to increase the risk of injury further down the line? If not, then could the added difficulty factor involved, simply become the new requirement for the ATP forehand, or will the more efficient Macci/Gordon model remain dominant?

I'm not convinced enough to stop prioritising efficiency when teaching technique.

[johnyandell]

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see if the trend continues. Roddick did it. Fed has a mild version. As usual the players decide.

[eaglesburg]

I used to have a kind of but not really similar backswing. The tip wasn't pointing forward, but I would kind of raise and lead the backswing with the elbow.
Here it is in April: https://youtu.be/_JsJGo1apJs
This is something I worked on fixing overt the summer before I ever signed up for this site. I worked on keeping my elbow tucked more and the racket tip pointing up more on the take back. This definitely made it easier to time the ball for me. So I agree with Licensedcoach that kyrgios's forehand is difficult to time.

[stotty]

I can fathom there might be some potential benefit of the racket pointing forwards...lag perhaps. But when I experiment with this kind of thing myself I have timing problems. The shot feels complex and tough to get out on time under duress. I guess if one has spent years perfecting the timing for it and you have the talent to pull it off, it can work.

I can't warm to the kid but he's got talent, that's for sure.

[johnyandell]

Right that backswing and windup are bigger than Rick and Brian Gordon's model for sure. BUT the interesting thing--same with Sock--what is the meaning of pointing the racket tip forward? Does it enhance the effect of the Macci/Gordon flip? Or is it unnecessary motion?

[kfriedman]

John -
The short power forehand taught by the great teaching pro Rick Macci is one that we see most often on the Men's tour and one that I teach my students.
I agree that too often the windshield wiper aspect of the forehand stroke is misunderstood and junior players lack elbow drive (extension) on contact. It's the drive part of the "whip-drive" groundstroke component that my favorite internet tennis mentor Doug King talks about in his Acceleration Tennis approach. I'm a huge fan of your site and insights as well...

[johnyandell]

kfriedman,

Good point! There is quite a variety of swings here. What others have you seen or would you expect to see?