header
  • You have been logged out of the forums. Please logout of our main site then login again on our home page. You will be automatically logged into the forums again.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Truth About "Lag and Snap"

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • johnyandell
    started a topic The Truth About "Lag and Snap"

    The Truth About "Lag and Snap"

    Let's discuss John Craig's latest article, "The Truth About Lag and Snap"

  • arturohernandez
    replied
    Originally posted by jdcremin View Post

    Some rambling follows:

    Now click 7-8 clicks forward and look at the racket/arm position - it's the exact same. He already knows he's going to whip the racket head up and over the ball - he's almost saying, "I'm going to wind up here and I'm starting here". How does he whip the racket head up and over the ball like that? By not thinking about it, not reading about it, not debating the role of the wrist - he just does it and so can anybody else (it's along the same lines as snatching a fly out of the air, how much is relaxation, how much wrist,? bla, bla, bla - just do it, attack the ball, rip the felt off the ball, peel the orange, be aggressive). It's definitely not stiff and it's definitely not all lose. If I was a coach (and when I retire I'm going to try it out) I would tell my students to actually pretend that they CAN shred the felt off the ball (good topspinners actually do), I want felt sheered off from just below the equator all the way to the top. Then I would let them figure out the most efficient way to do that - a strong, fast, violent movement (along the same mental pattern as catching a fly or snapping a towel). And I wouldn't hinder them by telling them that their wrist must not move.
    Interesting discussion. But I always go back to the stroke in many different conditions.

    Watch Federer when he returns serve

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...DeuceFront.mov

    What you see is almost none of the wrist or lag in that shot. John has noted that it looks almost like a classic stroke.

    This is probably what Federer learned when he was young and then he built over this little by little over time.

    So I think ripping the ball is a solution. But also learning to hit short court where we have total relaxation and use our legs and transfer that into the arm and wrist to create a nice loose stroke.

    The key is to rip the ball but also to be able to caress the ball.

    If a player can learn to do both those things then progress is coming.

    Of course, then he or she has to do it on the move.

    That is where the rubber meets the court.

    Full out running and then a nicely timed rip of the ball with all the minor adjustments needed to create the spin, height and location we would like.

    Tennis is a tough game!

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    Originally posted by jdcremin View Post

    Some rambling follows:

    Now click 7-8 clicks forward and look at the racket/arm position - it's the exact same. He already knows he's going to whip the racket head up and over the ball - he's almost saying, "I'm going to wind up here and I'm starting here". How does he whip the racket head up and over the ball like that? By not thinking about it, not reading about it, not debating the role of the wrist - he just does it and so can anybody else (it's along the same lines as snatching a fly out of the air, how much is relaxation, how much wrist,? bla, bla, bla - just do it, attack the ball, rip the felt off the ball, peel the orange, be aggressive). It's definitely not stiff and it's definitely not all lose. If I was a coach (and when I retire I'm going to try it out) I would tell my students to actually pretend that they CAN shred the felt off the ball (good topspinners actually do), I want felt sheered off from just below the equator all the way to the top. Then I would let them figure out the most efficient way to do that - a strong, fast, violent movement (along the same mental pattern as catching a fly or snapping a towel). And I wouldn't hinder them by telling them that their wrist must not move.
    It has been an interesting teaching experience for me. Once you get the student to turn with the racquet in position with the tip leaning towards the opponents side of the court you just tell them to step and swing. What happens next is a pretty natural motion. Shredding the felt off of the ball? Why not? It's worth a try. Its aggressive and that is what you want in the end of the forehand stroke...aggressiveness.

    Leave a comment:


  • jdcremin
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post

    My favorite shot of Roger Federer's forehand...look at the tip of the racquet at 41 clicks of the right arrow key from the beginning of the video. Peekaboo. This is what I am referring to...not the ready position. Alexander Zverev has a less pronounced "pointing tip" in the videos that John provided in the Interactive Forum of Zverev's forehand in this months issue.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov
    Some rambling follows:

    Now click 7-8 clicks forward and look at the racket/arm position - it's the exact same. He already knows he's going to whip the racket head up and over the ball - he's almost saying, "I'm going to wind up here and I'm starting here". How does he whip the racket head up and over the ball like that? By not thinking about it, not reading about it, not debating the role of the wrist - he just does it and so can anybody else (it's along the same lines as snatching a fly out of the air, how much is relaxation, how much wrist,? bla, bla, bla - just do it, attack the ball, rip the felt off the ball, peel the orange, be aggressive). It's definitely not stiff and it's definitely not all lose. If I was a coach (and when I retire I'm going to try it out) I would tell my students to actually pretend that they CAN shred the felt off the ball (good topspinners actually do), I want felt sheered off from just below the equator all the way to the top. Then I would let them figure out the most efficient way to do that - a strong, fast, violent movement (along the same mental pattern as catching a fly or snapping a towel). And I wouldn't hinder them by telling them that their wrist must not move.

    Leave a comment:


  • 10splayer
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post
    The Truth About Lag and Snap...(Lag and Stroke)

    Observe this Roger Federer forehand and specifically around 43 or 44 clips into the clip. The right shoulder, arm and hand appear to be pushing down as he initiates his forward swing...creating the "lag" in the wrist.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov

    Now shift gears into your golf brain. Take note of what this golf professional is discussing in the initiating the downswing. I believe that this is the "pat the dog" movement that what's his name (Rick Macci) has coined into the tennis lexicon.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1velb0EqU

    Particularly interested in John Yandell's impression here. Brian Gordon's would be very interesting as well. tennis_chiro? Anyone else?

    How about it 10splayer...come to think of it your opinion may be the most interesting of all.
    I don't think there's any doubt there is a similarity between golf and tennis when it come's to the concept of "lag". It's one of the keys to achieving "speed". The question as to how to achieve "it" is a whole different issue.
    Last edited by 10splayer; 04-25-2017, 03:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnyandell
    replied
    DB,
    Yeah that whole golf analogy thing...I don't understand golf--don't even play. But cross sport analogies I think are usually not that productive. Look at the size of the ball and where it is, stationary between the feet. Look at the length weight and size of the head on a golf club. My opinion is that it's hard enough to figure out tennis on it's own terms.

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    The Truth About Lag and Snap...(Lag and Stroke)

    Observe this Roger Federer forehand and specifically around 43 or 44 clips into the clip. The right shoulder, arm and hand appear to be pushing down as he initiates his forward swing...creating the "lag" in the wrist.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov

    Now shift gears into your golf brain. Take note of what this golf professional is discussing in the initiating the downswing. I believe that this is the "pat the dog" movement that what's his name (Rick Macci) has coined into the tennis lexicon.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB1velb0EqU

    Particularly interested in John Yandell's impression here. Brian Gordon's would be very interesting as well. tennis_chiro? Anyone else?

    How about it 10splayer...come to think of it your opinion may be the most interesting of all.

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    Originally posted by stotty View Post
    I've been experimenting with the tip pointing forward the last couple of days - no luck. I have a continental grip and find it doesn't lend itself well to the technique.
    Why don't you experiment with your grip as well? I found that this movement in my backswing was encouraging a "stronger" grip. It "felt" as if my hand needed to rotate a bit on the racquet.

    Leave a comment:


  • stotty
    replied
    I've been experimenting with the tip pointing forward the last couple of days - no luck. I have a continental grip and find it doesn't lend itself well to the technique.

    Leave a comment:


  • curiosity
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post

    My favorite shot of Roger Federer's forehand...look at the tip of the racquet at 41 clicks of the right arrow key from the beginning of the video. Peekaboo. This is what I am referring to...not the ready position. Alexander Zverev has a less pronounced "pointing tip" in the videos that John provided in the Interactive Forum of Zverev's forehand in this months issue.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov
    Got it. Someone saying he "points it" threw me. That tilt concept has been around for a while, hasn't it? It adds distance over which to gain momentum when the racquet is put back in lag. Put another way, it adds distance over which the hand can accelerate forward before the racquet hits the wall in lag.(?)

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    Originally posted by curiosity View Post

    Are you referring to the tilt of Zverev's racquet when in the ready position?
    My favorite shot of Roger Federer's forehand...look at the tip of the racquet at 41 clicks of the right arrow key from the beginning of the video. Peekaboo. This is what I am referring to...not the ready position. Alexander Zverev has a less pronounced "pointing tip" in the videos that John provided in the Interactive Forum of Zverev's forehand in this months issue.

    https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...tanceFront.mov

    Leave a comment:


  • curiosity
    replied
    Originally posted by don_budge View Post





    jdcremin...I'm with you. "All this modern talk is nonsense." I can't make heads or tails what curiosity is talking about. ESR's...UB's. Okay...he must be a lot smarter than me. So let me just tell you a little story about my forehand.

    ...............edit.........................

    Forget about all of the gibberish...just try to take a look at the simple aspect of the tip of the racquet pointing at the opponent. The rest takes care of itself if your other fundamentals are lined up. The one thing I did understand from curiosity was when he mentioned..."seem to make the modern forehand all but inevitable."

    You really don't have to know anything at all. All you need to do is "feel" the weight of the racquet head. As to my forehand now...it is hard for me to believe that I can go down the line, cross court or reverse cross court (inside out to most). Now I am hot on the trail working on my one hand backhand. In practice driving it with impunity with a slightly enhanced (stronger) grip. Not sure if it is 1/1 but I do "know" how it feels.

    Good luck...jdcremin! Keep it simple.
    Are you referring to the tilt of Zverev's racquet when in the ready position?

    Sample Alexander Zvereve forehands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9XL_lfJjwY
    And especially at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1rgeNU5CfI


    His forehand is not so different from Fed's, etc.: When he's ready to pull the trigger on the hit he pulls in the off arm, releases or assists the hitting shoulder to let the upper hitting arm externally rotate, then pulls the butt cap out toward the incoming ball.

    I never watched a "toy drum" video. However, in my little world the hitting arm never should fall behind the hitting shoulder except for the small amount attributable to some shoulder joint give. I have to ask this: Have you ever tried the experiment in which you initiate your forward UB rotation with and alternatively without perform ESR just at the instant UB rotation starts? It seems somehow an obscure fact: If your take-back has your hitting upper arm at least 25 or 30 degrees raised from the side, and if you rotate your hitting upper arm (for a righty) clockwise in the shoulder joint (ESR), then you cannot leave the arm behind even if you want to. The ESR causes a partial lock of your shoulder as UB rotation begins, and makes the transfer of UB momentum to the hitting upper arm natural and efficient. Whether you do ESR or don't, if you leave your arm hanging at your side, it can lag, be left behind. That is why the hitting upper arm must be at least 20 degrees or so raised out from the torso...to allow lockup.

    Virtually every major pro player gets his hitting upper arm up/out a bit from his torso just before launching the forehand. Just about every one "lets ESR happen," alternative description, "automatically assists his hitting upper arm to roll clockwise in the shoulder joint, taking the forearm and racquet along for the roll. That puts the racquet head low, in lag, and allows for (mandates, actually) relaxing the small forearm muscles (wrist). The butt cap is naturally left pointing toward the net, the incoming ball, and the racquet pull-out butt cap first...begins. It all seems simple, and for the most part universal at the top. "Use the leg extension and off-arm pull in to get the UB rotating. Use ESR to lock up (partially) the hitting shoulder so that the hitting arm will accept (not dissipate) the transfer of upper body rotational momentum.

    Craig's discussion is very good. However, though he performs ESR, "pulling the elbow through," and calls it natural, the motion he demonstrates requires the active release of the muscles controlling the shoulder/humerus joint, and those small muscles of the lower forearm that we call the wrist muscles.

    I long ago hear snap described (erroneously) as part of the serve. I never got it as part of the forehand, though the German Tennis Fed manual speaks of "squeezing off" the forehand hit, wherein the squeeze accelerates the RH a bit.

    I have to laugh. I wouldn't call the forehand "lag and snap," but rather "ESR then ISR." And the ISR into contact is hugely important, validated by essentially every reputable text on tennis mechanics. Lagging the racquet IS in general the creation of ESR allowing the movement, the rocking back and down of the racquet head. ISR into contact is, agreed, a rolling motion of the entire arm and racquet counterclockwise up into contact. So, laugh, we can call the ESR-ISR sequence "rock and roll."



    Critiques welcome.
    Last edited by curiosity; 04-20-2017, 09:50 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • curiosity
    replied
    Originally posted by seano View Post
    On extremely wide balls, when you're on the dead run, squaring up probably won't be possible. You may only be able the manipulate the hands.
    (Chalk it up to the strong Sumatra coffee....) -On the dead run to the forehand side Fed teaches by example: He uses his hand/wrist and minute extent of swing, but the main effort to get the ball over the net appears to come from rolling his straight upper arm clockwise, then counterclockwise into contact. Or, in plain words (laugh), ESR and then ISR. Video confirmation available upon request, though it's from another source.

    Leave a comment:


  • don_budge
    replied
    Originally posted by curiosity View Post
    It is, I feel, one of the serendipitous facts of performing ESR just at the instant UB rotation starts, that, provided the hitting upper arm is elevated sufficiently from the side (30 degrees), letting that ESR happen (or, ha!, forcing it subconsciously) the hitting shoulder will lock up a bit. You cannot then let the hitting arm fall behind as the UB turns. A slight lag of the arm is natural though, isn't it, as the UB's momentum whips the upper arm into action. In fact ESR's three main results, lagging the racquet, encouraging full wrist lay-back, and locking the shoulder to produce efficient momentum transfer to the upper hitting arm....seem to make a modern forehand all but inevitable. Ah, a reverie upon ESR.... laugh.
    Originally posted by jdcremin View Post
    John Craig is right, as usual. I fell for the New Forehand and was going for this lag and snap for the past several years. I had forsaken my fundamentals for the modern forehand. I finally realized why I had lost my forehand - I was lagging the ARM and the racket (I already had this all important racket lag!). Terrible. The arm MUST stay connected to the torso until sometime close to contact - BTW, that is not what is shown in the very popular video where the guy twists the toy stick drum (lock and roll tennis) - the arms are imagined to be disconnect from torso - bad. I think what I was doing is a very common habit so take heed. All this modern talk is nonsense.

    By disconnected, I mean that as the torso rotates, the hitting arm is left behind and has to catch up - I'm sure someone here will advocate for that even though it is an absolute stroke killer.

    Jon C
    Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
    Jon,
    So true. It's amazing how what you think you "know" can be such a negative... Everytime I hit I marvel at how it would screw up my forehand if I was trying to create that...
    jdcremin...I'm with you. "All this modern talk is nonsense." I can't make heads or tails what curiosity is talking about. ESR's...UB's. Okay...he must be a lot smarter than me. So let me just tell you a little story about my forehand.

    This business about pointing the tip of the racquet towards your opponent in the initiation of the backswing always sounded and looked to be unsound fundamentally so being a fundamentalist teacher. This idea of such a dramatic "flip" just doesn't appeal to my simple nature. As a minimalist...less is often better. But I was watching the Alexander Zverev video in this months issue and somehow it made me curious. So I tried pointing the tip of my racquet at my opponent and after a couple of swings I started to "time it" on the screws. Imagine my surprise...I was absolutely "clocking it". I practiced it a bit against some of my students...just thinking about the motion in slow motion so to speak and waited for an hour when I play against my better players.

    These better players have been recently started to nip at my heels and this is due to a couple of reasons. One factor is that I am getting older and another was that I used to be able to take advantage of them with my "old forehand". So when I got the chance I had it with them and the results were rather startling. I don't think they knew what hit them. Then I had a week off...which I spent joining a local golf club here in Sweden and went to work on resurrecting my golf game...after roughly six years of nearly total neglect. Oh well...back to the drawing board.

    But the whole week I had this "image" of my pointing the tip of my racquet at my opponent in the initiation of my forehand backswing. Plus I had the overwhelming positive feedback from the one hour that I pinned their ears back in practice. This Monday I had a chance to practice with the boys that are two years older than the other boys and lo and behold...they got their butts handed to them. Imagine their surprise.

    Forget about all of the gibberish...just try to take a look at the simple aspect of the tip of the racquet pointing at the opponent. The rest takes care of itself if your other fundamentals are lined up. The one thing I did understand from curiosity was when he mentioned..."seem to make the modern forehand all but inevitable."

    You really don't have to know anything at all. All you need to do is "feel" the weight of the racquet head. As to my forehand now...it is hard for me to believe that I can go down the line, cross court or reverse cross court (inside out to most). Now I am hot on the trail working on my one hand backhand. In practice driving it with impunity with a slightly enhanced (stronger) grip. Not sure if it is 1/1 but I do "know" how it feels.

    Good luck...jdcremin! Keep it simple.

    Leave a comment:


  • curiosity
    replied
    It is, I feel, one of the serendipitous facts of performing ESR just at the instant UB rotation starts, that, provided the hitting upper arm is elevated sufficiently from the side (30 degrees), letting that ESR happen (or, ha!, forcing it subconsciously) the hitting shoulder will lock up a bit. You cannot then let the hitting arm fall behind as the UB turns. A slight lag of the arm is natural though, isn't it, as the UB's momentum whips the upper arm into action. In fact ESR's three main results, lagging the racquet, encouraging full wrist lay-back, and locking the shoulder to produce efficient momentum transfer to the upper hitting arm....seem to make a modern forehand all but inevitable. Ah, a reverie upon ESR.... laugh.

    Leave a comment:

Who's Online

Collapse

There are currently 233 users online. 15 members and 218 guests.

Most users ever online was 382 at 09:55 AM on 11-05-2018.

Working...
X