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Interactive Forum January 2017: Do You "Carve" the Deuce Serve Wide? Borna Coric

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  • Interactive Forum January 2017: Do You "Carve" the Deuce Serve Wide? Borna Coric

    Do You "Carve" the Deuce Serve Wide? Borna Coric

    For years Tennisplayer has analyzed high speed footage of the racket path on the serve to dispel the idea that players somehow carve around the ball to serve wide in the deuce court. We featured groundbreaking footage of Pete Sampras in the Forum in 2010. (Click Here.) And did a detailed analysis of Federer’s wide serve in 2014. (Click Here.)

    That hasn’t stopped big name coaches at respected academies and former players selling expensive instructional product from claiming the way to direct the ball wide in the deuce court is to move the racket around the right side of the ball. It’s a preposterous and irresponsible claim. The ball is on the racket for 4 milliseconds or less in the serve. So “carving” around the ball is impossible anyway. And the reality is the key movement in the serve—the unitary rotation of the hand arm and racket—is present in all high level serves. Including the wide deuce serve.

    So let’s look again using our amazing new footage from Montreal, where we had a perfect camera angle to film deuce court serves by Borna Coric. You will see that very small differences in the timing of this rotation—sometimes called internal shoulder rotation or pronation—are the key. These differences are invisible to the human eye. Aren’t you glad you subscribe to Tennisplayer?

    Last edited by johnyandell; 01-02-2017, 06:59 PM.

  • #2
    MP4 Version: Do You “Carve” the Deuce Serve Wide? Borna Coric

    Last edited by johnyandell; 01-02-2017, 06:59 PM.

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    • #3
      Yes it sure is a minuscule adjustment even in slow motion. Thanks

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      • #4
        T Serve: more internal shoulder rotation earlier and shoulders stay turned an extra fraction.
        Wide Serve: Shoulders open earlier and less internal shoulder rotation.

        Kyle LaCroix USPTA
        Boca Raton

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        • #5
          agree with Kyle

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          • #6
            Carving round the ball is a term that has been used in coaching for donkeys years. The question to ask, of course, is has it done any harm? Or is it a coaching myth that worked over the years despite its incorrectness?

            Stotty
            Stotty

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            • #7
              I say harm...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by johnyandell View Post
                I say harm...
                I what way? I am assuming it inhibits the unitary rotation of the hand arm and racket?

                Stotty
                Last edited by stotty; 01-06-2017, 12:31 PM.
                Stotty

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                • #9
                  That's what i think and it also increases usually the left to right component in the upward swing which further diminishes power.

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                  • #10
                    I think this gets to the heart of coaching and teaching tennis. We use words and metaphors
                    and images to describe how a tennis action moves, what it looks like, what it feels like.
                    Some of these come from other sports, in the US it is often baseball. So we get descriptions that are related to fastballs and curve balls and a baseball playerís use of the wrist, which is not a tennis playerís use of the wrist.

                    This is also combined with the toss-for example toss more to the right and then carve or peel around the outside of the ball.
                    As has been described in other articles on Tennisplayer the toss actually moves from right to left (which in itself precludes a carving action) and the hand action is actually in to out, as can be seen in this wonderful slow-motion of Coricís serve.

                    So what is the new language, the new image that conveys the movement on a serve, that conveys what it feels like?

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                    • #11
                      many people believe it is the wrist snap that adds power that is not true it is the inward rotation of shoulder and arm that adds much of the power.i think for a wide serve as kyle says is the slight delay of the rotation of the arm.
                      Jack Foster, USPTA Master Pro

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                      • #12
                        I agree with timing. I tell my players, to hit up the T try just pulling your toss arm down harder. I used to think this just changed the direction of the swing, but it might just speed up the timing, leaving the rest of the serve alone. Try it! - High School Coach

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                        • #13
                          Isn't it thinking to hit up and across the ball? The angle of approach differs slightly between wide and down the line. The height of impact affects the spin: lower - more topspin, higher - more sidespin.
                          Regards, Phil

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                          • #14
                            I do wish that another term was in fact terminated: wrist snap! There is no such thing as a "wrist snap"...it's called pronation!
                            Don't understand this post? Time to start your due diligence and this web-site is a great place to start.

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                            • #15
                              The External Shoulder Rotation, so extreme and so high, concludes way up there before the Internal Shoulder Rotation kicks in.

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