Technical Flaws in Pro Two Handers: Milos Raonic

[stotty]

Yep to balance the budget they are cancelling Tennisplayer for all their coaches. That just about pays for the roof (ha...) Stotty did they let you know that?

No they haven't mentioned that so far. That's a shame. I never felt they did enough to promote Tennisplayer to drive coaches to the website.

Oh, well, Stotty isn't going anywhere. You had better email me the bill since the LTA won't be paying it anymore.

[klacr]

Sounds like LTA has an issue with leadership more than anything else. Can we vote you in Stotty to take over LTA?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[John Yandell]

I think it's got a few more months. When did you sign up this year? I am not that sad--the administrative hoops were barely worth it for the discount we gave them. Just sorry that coaches won't be exposed to it!

[stotty]

Sounds like LTA has an issue with leadership more than anything else. Can we vote you in Stotty to take over LTA?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole or for all the burgers in America. The one thing I might do differently is promote the game through adverts on national TV. All these initiatives they try to run are terrific but rely on troops on the ground to deliver, which the troops aren't keen to do for free!

I think it's got a few more months. When did you sign up this year? I am not that sad--the administrative hoops were barely worth it for the discount we gave them. Just sorry that coaches won't be exposed to it!

I renewed my LTA licence in October. But another coach's license might run from May to May or any 12 month period. So really it just goes from when the LTA axes TP as a coach resource. Anyway, just let me know.

[patdougherty]

Why no mention that he is hitting from a fully closed stance in every pic and how that impacts the contact zone and all other symptoms you refer to as the cause of the problem? Perhaps a followup article is in line to explore that?

[John Yandell]

Pat you and I disagree about closed stances. A study we did of hundreds of two handers in conjunction with USTA found at the pro level something like 85% of all two handed shot (and one handers for that matter as well) were hit with fully closed, even radically closed stances. There are some articles about it in the Advanced Tennis section. Don't see that as a problem for Milos.

[seano]

Pat -

Could you please explain your position on the fully closed stance for the 2 handed backhand, I'm not familiar with it and am curious your thoughts on how it impacts the contact zone and all other symptoms, thanks.

Sean

[nickw]

Just when you thought you knew everything about the two-hander! World class article John, really enjoyed working through it.

Real shame LTA are stopping the benefit. I was at an LTA coach forum a few days ago, someone came up and shook my hand and said he'd seen my articles on here. We spoke about how little the LTA have done to promote the benefit, and this coach just wished he had the time to 'read every article on here'. I'm sure so many other UK coaches would also see the incredible learning value this site has to offer. Even at the annual forums, they highlight other benefits, but not this one. It's tucked away in your online coaches area. Almost like the LTA feel threatened by a resource if it's too good, very sad state of affairs.

[stotty]

Real shame LTA are stopping the benefit. I was at an LTA coach forum a few days ago, someone came up and shook my hand and said he'd seen my articles on here. We spoke about how little the LTA have done to promote the benefit, and this coach just wished he had the time to 'read every article on here'. I'm sure so many other UK coaches would also see the incredible learning value this site has to offer. Even at the annual forums, they highlight other benefits, but not this one. It's tucked away in your online coaches area. Almost like the LTA feel threatened by a resource if it's too good, very sad state of affairs.

So true. I wrote to the LTA about this some time ago saying Tennisplayer needed more exposure. Actually, all the 'accredited coach benefits' are too tucked away for my liking. The thing is, coaches need resources like Tennisplayer because the CPDs never cover any technical or biomechanics stuff. Most of the CPDs are pretty useless when you think about it. I wouldn't say the LTA sees Tennisplayer as a threat, but I spoke to a couple of the higher ranking performance coaches who regard Tennisplayer as a website that leans towards fixed coaching ideas. For example, the platform stance is considered, on balance, the best stance by Tennisplayer, so to them it's a fixed idea. This of course isn't true. Tennisplayer looks at all types of serves and stances and has weighed up the merits of the pinpoint stance, and has stated it can work superbly well for some players. Just because Tennisplayer scientifically weighs in favour of the simplicity of platform, doesn't make it a fixed idea, it's just a fact that players/coaches might or might not want to take onboard.

The LTA is in charge of coach education. For me, there is not enough support for coaches to enable them to develop quality junior players. All the LTA qualifications tend to deal with tennis in a broad sense and don't drill down anywhere near enough into the technical side of coaching. Most of the coaches who coach well have educated themselves by rooting around for information online off their own back. The game has a lot of science to it these days and coaches need to be educated in that direction. Tennisplayer is one of the resources that can help do that.

[nickw]

So true. I wrote to the LTA about this some time ago saying Tennisplayer needed more exposure. Actually, all the 'accredited coach benefits' are too tucked away for my liking. The thing is, coaches need resources like Tennisplayer because the CPDs never cover any technical or biomechanics stuff. Most of the CPDs are pretty useless when you think about it. I wouldn't say the LTA sees Tennisplayer as a threat, but I spoke to a couple of the higher ranking performance coaches who regard Tennisplayer as a website that leans towards fixed coaching ideas. For example, the platform stance is considered, on balance, the best stance by Tennisplayer, so to them it's a fixed idea. This of course isn't true. Tennisplayer looks at all types of serves and stances and has weighed up the merits of the pinpoint stance, and has stated it can work superbly well for some players. Just because Tennisplayer scientifically weighs in favour of the simplicity of platform, doesn't make it a fixed idea, it's just a fact that players/coaches might or might not want to take onboard.

The LTA is in charge of coach education. For me, there is not enough support for coaches to enable them to develop quality junior players. All the LTA qualifications tend to deal with tennis in a broad sense and don't drill down anywhere near enough into the technical side of coaching. Most of the coaches who coach well have educated themselves by rooting around for information online off their own back. The game has a lot of science to it these days and coaches need to be educated in that direction. Tennisplayer is one of the resources that can help do that.

Yes very true, CPD's are often not relevant, and coaches do have to learn off their own back if they really want to fulfil their potential and be effective. Views on the LTA could have their own sticky thread, and probably would if this was a UK based site! My feeling is things are better now than they were, but the LTA has always had issues with supporting/embracing anything that comes from outside of their inner circle, and that culture is embedded to varying degress in many of the big performance centres, to the detriment of the players who train at them. All very opposite to some other countries, like Spain where it seems it is much more of a 'we are in this together' mentality. The fact that those high-ranking performance coaches have that view of TennisPlayer just shows they can't have spent too much time looking at the material. Otherwise they would see the site for what it is, an incredible learning resource that is compatible with any individual coaching philosophy.

[don_budge]

Would love your thoughts on "Technical Flaws in Pro Two Handers: Milos Raonic"

Hmmm. I have been a consistent critic of Milos Raonic over the years starting with the video that was posted of his serve some years ago. Here is a post from the thread...

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...c+serve&page=2

Interactive Forum May 2011: Milos Raonic: Serve

The question still persists...

Besides all of the questions about the idiosyncratic nature of his service motion, I have just one more question...is the motion conducive to him following it into the net? As it looks now the answer to that question is...no. I suggest sending him to the Stan Smith school of serving for some seasoning.

140 mph is impressive...but spin, placement and tactics are equally important elements of the service game. His motion may not be appropriate for those more subtler elements of service technique and tactics. That little idiosyncratic move that he makes at the top of his backswing to compensate for the rather unorthodox starting position of his racquet head and wrist is worrisome to me. Those little moves and compensations in a players swing sometimes are the reason things tend to break down under pressure...when things get a little dicey. It also looks like he tosses the ball very high which can be problematic in the wind.

It would be a shame to waste this young man's obvious strength and not develop the rest of his game around it, while at the same time continuing to develop the serve. If I were his coach I would not be satisfied with this as the final product. Hopefully he has a thoughtful coach, that is mindful of the potential this young man has, that will point him in the right direction.

This player should be developed to serve and volley, to attack the net and to play all court tennis...he is a perfect candidate, designed to offset the advantages of the prototypical modern backcourt player of today.

As it stands now, though, this is the perfect modern day serve. Generally the philosophy is...you cannot argue with velocity. Hit as hard as possible with minimal thought devoted to tactics...then retreat behind the baseline.

I had the chance to see Milos Raonic play in the Stockholm Open this week and I was very impressed...with my comments here at the forum about his serve and his overall game in general.

First of all...no matter what you say about video evidence, there is nothing like seeing the thing in action and under pressure. To watch a single view or even three or four does not give you the total "picture" as watching it over the course of a match or two. That being said...when I made my original comments I had never seen him play. After seeing him play, I stand by my comments and I sort of surprised myself how much I gleaned from a few seconds of video about the big picture.

This young man's serve still looks virtually identical to the video footage here on the thread and it held up in this tournament...up to a point. He lost to Gail Monfils in the semifinals in a match that he was definitely in position to win. He won the first set in a tiebreak...I suspect he will be involved in many tie breaks, but lost the match after being up a break in both the second and third sets. Things tend to get a bit dicey...especially for Raonic having a top ten player on the ropes, the nerves tend to do funny things.

I don't care for the little idiosyncratic moves in his serve and I still believe that in the long run this is going to cost him. One thing that I walked away with, though, is that I was impressed with his potential. He has a very nice service rhythm...his preshot routine has a very aesthetically pleasing bouncey, bouncey aspect to it and I still feel that if he was to iron out this motion a bit and study service tactics ala the Stan Smith video that I posted some time ago, he could improve his standings on the world stage. Certainly his ranking at any rate. I liked the setup on his forehand in particular at times and I feel that this is a shot he could potentially hit moving forward. It's too bad he doesn't hit a one hand backhand because that would enhance the volleying and approach shot aspects of his game. His tactics left something to be desired and I did not feel that he was exploiting the obvious strengths of his game to the fullest.

The thing that concerns me most is this guys incredibly long legs. He appears to be disproportionately long legged. The lateral movement must be extremely tough on his legs and hips...no wonder he had the hip issue. He certainly is not built like a grinder. Serve and volley might be the way to go in his case as perhaps the forward movement would not be so stressful on his body. Another concern is that he looks to be a bit laconic...a bit lethargic. He almost could remind me of a potential Sampras-like player but he is without the fire in his belly like a Pete Sampras...who could very well of served as a model for him. I sort of question whether or not he has the cajones to pull off the pressure on the net tactic...that is the real test of a tennis player. One who is compelled to dominate play at the net, but of course we no longer have the pleasure to see this tactic any longer...regrettably.

In the other semifinal...Jarkko Nieminen (#73 in the world) defeated James Blake (#69 in the world)...another three setter. In a battle of a couple of thirty-year olds, Nieminen prevailed because of his ability to take it up the line aggressively first on the forehand to backhand exchanges with Blake...Nieminen being left-handed. Overall, I would have to say that the action was...how should I put it? Non-compelling.

My impressions on the modern game persist...they have not changed since I witnessed the change in the late 1970's. I felt then...immediately that the game was ruined. The action is boring. The subtlety is gone...along with the artistic nature of the game. Philosophically there is a void as well. I am not impressed or entertained by the ball bashing. I can imagine these guys with the old equipment playing beautiful tennis at roughly half the speed. Professional tennis desperately needs to standardize the equipment in order to compensate for the overemphasis on speed...not that it will ever happen.

I have suggested on a number of occasions that the Interactive forum might benefit on videos from various aspects of a player's game for a number of reasons...and one of them might just be to make tennisplayer.net a more effective teaching or educational aid. If that is possible. It is possible too...as in the stated philosophy of for instance any corporation that states a quest for continuous improvement. Be that as it may...I may be mistaken.

But then again to illustrate my point...this article about the Milos Raonic backhand is an interesting one. As far as it goes. But sometimes I think that we limit ourselves to overthinking technique as opposed to developing tactical acumen. This is a case in point.

As with the serve of Raonic I think that Milos' backhand seems to not be congruent with what his end goals should be as a tennis player. The end goals would be to maximise his results in terms of performance of which technique is certainly an important cog in the means to the end. At six foot six inches tall or whatever his height is it seems to me that he is playing a game of retrieving way too much and the endless rallies from behind the baseline are not appropriate for a man of his size and build. He does seem to be injured quite a lot...doesn't he?

My point here is that in some of the videos that are inserted into the article it appears to me as if Raonic should let go of the racquet with his left hand. He definitely should be hitting a one handed backhand. There is absolutely no reason for a man of his size to have a two hand backhand. There aren't too many one hand backhands on the men's tour these days but the ones that are...they are pretty darn good and there is no reason that Milos couldn't have a very fine one handed backhand as well. Now just think...if Milos has a one handed backhand to complement a serve that is more conducive to his moving forwards to the net instead of consistently retreating behind the baseline...well that is a different animal. What is more it is an animal that will be moving forwards a lot more that will sort of limit the stress on his body as he is playing it now.

Of course the analysis of his two handed backhand is more or less spot on...but the bigger picture is this guy has not been developed in the manner that he should have. As it is he has a rather glaring weakness on the backhand side and what is more...he is grossly limited in tactical options because of it. This is a very talented guy...I think. It seems that he has been close to winning a lot of tournaments but somehow he falls short more often than not. So the question is inevitably "Why" I think. The answer to the question isn't all that complicated but it is rather disappointing. He has failed to maximise his potential.

[John Yandell]

Yep. He shoulda had a one-hander. Not gonna happen at this point. Same for Isner and Jo Willie and maybe Sock--that analysis coming up.

[don_budge]

Yes very true, CPD's are often not relevant, and coaches do have to learn off their own back if they really want to fulfil their potential and be effective. Views on the LTA could have their own sticky thread, and probably would if this was a UK based site! My feeling is things are better now than they were, but the LTA has always had issues with supporting/embracing anything that comes from outside of their inner circle, and that culture is embedded to varying degress in many of the big performance centres, to the detriment of the players who train at them. All very opposite to some other countries, like Spain where it seems it is much more of a 'we are in this together' mentality. The fact that those high-ranking performance coaches have that view of TennisPlayer just shows they can't have spent too much time looking at the material. Otherwise they would see the site for what it is, an incredible learning resource that is compatible with any individual coaching philosophy.

"but the LTA has always had issues with supporting/embracing anything that comes from outside of their inner circle, and that culture is embedded to varying degress in many of the big performance centres, to the detriment of the players who train at them."

Rest assured your tennis federation is not alone in their fear of outside influences. It's amazing how this sort of mindset is so prevalent amongst tennis cultures...be it on individual, club, district, nation or federation levels. The mindset seems to be so closed and afraid that something new might come along and actually improve things.

I think Sweden takes the cake of all of them. The system here is so backwards and the solutions are always addressing everything except what ails them. I did try to wake them...I sent a logistical summary of the state of things how they are and a solution to how they might be. But I am the outsider here and they assured me that everything was under control was their only response to my rather intriguing plan. Haven't seen any improvement...in my neck of the woods it has actually gone in reverse.

Tennis culture is a strange one. Individuals are so protective of their area. The mere idea of teaching the one handed backhand was enough to send my ex partner into a hysterical fit resembling "Trump Derangement Syndrome". "No one hand backhands...only two handed backhands", he was screaming at me. Melting down right in front of me. Threatening to leave the club if I didn't cease and desist.

I never did. I was always going to be thorn in his side. This loser never was a competitive tennis player. How is it possible for such a creature to train tennis players to play competitive tennis. That is tantamount to a woman trying to teach a boy to be a man.

Your federation did all of the coaches under its command a total disservice by discontinuing the subscription to tennisplayer.net. Well you know what they say...joke 'em if they can't take a f*ck. Losers.

[John Yandell]

Nick, DB,
Thanks for the great words. At least the LTA made it available for a few years. Spanish did the same a few years back. But I never worry about the views of others about Tennisplayer. We just keep trying to expose it to as many people in tennis as possible. If you go on the phone you've noticed the new design and super mobile friendly navigation. Forum will be there soon as well. We plan a couple of marketing initiatives also. To be honest I think we are still way ahead of our time but more and more people are catching up. The upcoming generation of coaches are native speakers and inherently tech friendly and that I think is a good sign for the future.

[stotty]

Nick, DB,
If you go on the phone you've noticed the new design and super mobile friendly navigation. Forum will be there soon as well. We plan a couple of marketing initiatives also. To be honest I think we are still way ahead of our time but more and more people are catching up. The upcoming generation of coaches are native speakers and inherently tech friendly and that I think is a good sign for the future.

Good plan with the mobile initiative. All of my son's generation access websites on their mobile phones. I don't like it much because I prefer viewing on a bigger screen, but it's definitely the way to go with the younger generation. Most of our club's traffic comes from mobile phones.