The Serve: Probation!

[stotty]

John, Phil:

There has to be some connection between technique and injury although genetics doubtless plays its part. I use lateral pinpoint. I have arthritis in the left knee but nothing in the right. I am perilously close to bone on bone. With my type of serve all the load is borne by the left leg, the right leg, certainly in my case, merely acts as a stabiliser. I just have to believe that if I had shared the load with both legs over the last 40 odd years my left knee might not be in such poor shape today. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4joc07

[johnyandell]

Phil,
There could be such thing--although I doubt it...many many factors....Better technique should equal less injury...but...Let's see what Brian says.

[seano]

John -
I appreciate you thoughts, thank you. ))

[bottle]

John -
Definite food for thought, thank you.

I love your observations but hate the cliche "food for thought." I could have not said that but reconsidered. Maybe I'm just reminding myself never to use the three words "food for thought" in my own discourse while giving my enemies, who always need help, a proven way to irritate me.

[gzhpcu]

John, I had a friend who was a tennis pro years ago, and he said for a tennis player a biomechanical profile should be established to determine the optimal technique to avoid injuries. He wanted to write a book, but never got around to it.

[don_budge]

2) If you were her coach when she was a youngster, could you give me a progression of steps you would take to maximize her serve talent? Start with "Probation" to synchronize lower/upper body, then what...? Control swing path? Develop more of a "sweeping" motion in external rotation? I feel it's very useful to hear your thoughts. Thank you again.

SeanO

Start with the "Probation" and then move to a setup position that is designed to initiate by inertia the perfect backswing that gets her to the probation point with a minimum amount of speed before the racquet descends behind her back. Brian says it doesn't matter how you get there but he prefers the platform stance. I would eliminate that part of the "youngster Sharapova's" motion right off the bat. The pinpoint. A lot of extra movement for no apparent reason.

Probation-setup-backswing. Then work on the toss. If you have all systems go and the ball is in the right vicinity the rest will take care of itself...with a tinker here and there. Then I would have her serve and volley to exaggerate the upward motion and the initial thrust into the court. In the past service motions were designed to propel towards the net. Today they are designed with a braking mechanism. The serve and volley being a teaching mechanism with the obvious additional benefits in the future.

Excellent question...I couldn't resist.

[seano]

John -
Definite food for thought, thank you.

[johnyandell]

Seano,
If you don't mind me jumping in, there are a couple of questionable assumptions here. One that you can draw a straight line between technique and injury. You can find plenty of players with all the same serve elements as Maria that aren't injured. It's like when Vic Braden claimed open stance was the source of Kuerten's hip injuries. Second with Sharapova maybe it's not the serve at all. Lansdorp always said the late contact on her forehand. My point is bodies are different and you can't clone Maria and train her different ways to see if the result is the same. Brian correct me please.

[seano]

Brian -

Once again, Maria Sharapova has withdrawn from a tournament (Indian Wells) because of shoulder issues. 2 questions:

1) To what would you attribute her history of shoulder problems to? I'm assuming it's her serve but in your view what bio-mechanically is she doing wrong to create all of her problems? Is it her high ball toss? Lack of synchronization between lower & upper body? Lack of true balance when fully loaded with her legs (knees seem to be touching instead of each knee directly above the appropriate foot)? Lack of a external/internal shoulder rotation? Combination of all or something completely different?

2) If you were her coach when she was a youngster, could you give me a progression of steps you would take to maximize her serve talent? Start with "Probation" to synchronize lower/upper body, then what...? Control swing path? Develop more of a "sweeping" motion in external rotation? I feel it's very useful to hear your thoughts. Thank you again.

SeanO

[don_budge]

Your thoughts on Brian Gordon's "The Serve: Probation!"?

Thanks for the comments and words of encouragement. Glad some found the video (and series) at least entertaining and interesting if not informative. I suppose the man in black analogy should be amended to the man in black that needs to get his weight challenged ass in the gym - one would think that 10-14 hours a day on the court in Florida heat would keep one in better shape - one would be mistaken lol.

Yeah...where does one find the time? Caught between the yearning for love and the struggle for the legal tender as Jackson Browne sang in "The Pretender".

But you are absolutely project a very believable, intelligent and credible image in the videos and I have come away with two great takeaways in the teaching of the service motion and a very serious question.

The "Probation" segment is an excellent place to begin in correcting any improprieties in motions that not totally free of friction. I worked with my protege, Gustaf, several times in the past couple of weeks and today I sent him a message that said..."We should try to complete the installation of the perfect frictionless motion and introduce the idea of supreme confidence in the motion. Serve and volley." So much progress was made in ironing out the little kinks and points of friction by referring to this "Probation" point and then trying to get the backswing right to get the student in this position with the right timing going forwards. So I have to hand it to you in this regard...an excellent teaching tool and thanks for sharing.

Secondly the idea of what you refer to as "forward rotation" as opposed to "twist rotation". A very important distinction as well that makes it easier to explain to the student as to what exactly it is that we are trying to accomplish with our body rotation.

Synchronizing the Legs…Dr. Brian Gordon

Transcribed from the video below:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...zing_the_legs/

But for the most part the whole thing is set up to produce a forward rotation and not a twisting rotation.

Again to be very, very clear, whether she comes into this continuously or whether she stops her racquet in a hesitation point, the leg drive should commence exactly as the racquet breaks into the backswing and conclude exactly as the racquet exits the backswing. That would indicate perfect timing. It’s very, very important that timing is correct because you may have noticed that in Kayla when I take her into this position of external rotation I’m basically having to crank her shoulder right out of her body.

That’s because you cannot really do that in a static situation. The only way that this can be done in a real way is if her shoulder is incredibly relaxed.The only way she can relax her shoulder is if this external rotation is being caused by something other than a muscular activity doing this. The action that will do it is if she pushes with her legs up a force will be applied to her arm here and because of the orientation that force to the racquet it will make the racquet essentially go down her back as a function of inertia.

I'm so glad that I transcribed this particular segment of your serving lesson. There are several pearls in this that deserve to be mentioned and repeated over and over.

The question that I do raise is that in the video you express that it doesn't matter in what manner the student gets to this "hesitation point" and I found that to be a very interesting statement. My suggestion to my student/protege to serve and volley with this motion in place is to get him to the next level of serving which is thoughtful tactics and possible outcomes when coming to the net behind it. Once he gets the feeling of this frictionless motion I want him to feel that he can challenge even the best returners with his perfect motion to give him that supreme confidence in his serve so that he just glares over the net as if to say to his opponent..."You can't touch this".

For me this is all what you call pendulum backswing. This is a backswing wholly dependent upon the concept of "inertia" and it matches the loop that is made behind the back in the motion not to mention the loop made coming out of the loop to produce the forwards swing. To me...it is hugely rhythm that produces a great service motion and therefore great tactics. Equal parts spin, placement and speed. Any combination or permutation of the three that the server decides to use to attack the defending returner. Only with this sense of "fatalism" that if you miss the first serve you go ahead with the same perfect motion knowing full well that the motion is so good it would be impossible to miss two in a row.

Good stuff Doctor Brian. Some really substantial food for thought. For the student and the teacher.

[bottle]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve. He even seems to have that internally rotated arm "probation" position or hesitation point position of approximately 20% to 30% that Brian stated he finds desirable.

Exactly. I'm opting for 20 degrees off TDC in motion 2, # 4726 but am employing a different toss structure from Todd Martin which I hope is an improvement on Todd. But if I can't beat Todd I may join him.

But...beat Todd, Bottle, are you serious? I don't mean beat Todd Martin in a tennis match but beat him in design.

Design of course will only take a player so far. Success will be more about how one uses the design. But as Jim Courier once said to a mass TV audience, "Don't expect logic on the tour."

That says to me that some design ideas at the top level of tennis are just as questionable as those at the bottom level.

[bottle]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve.

See second motion at A NEW YEAR'S SERVE today, # 4726, for something similar though a bit different.

[stroke]

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/martin_serve.php

This is the Todd Martin serve, a link from one our forum contributors Jeff Counts. Todd to me seems to have a prototype Probation serve. He even seems to have that internally rotated arm "probation" position or hesitation point position of approximately 20% to 30% that Brian stated he finds desirable.

[lovati4]

That's OK.

[bottle]

Apology

gzhpcu - Not sure I understand your question but... in a probation serve you start at the hesitation point so how you get there makes no difference - the palm is facing the side fence (or slightly down with the internal rotation enhancement). I suspect you are asking about a full motion. With abbreviated motions the palm will face down during much of the windup. With pendulum motions and no hesitation the palm can face down over most of the windup. For pendulum motions with hesitation you absolutely don't want the palm to face down - very inefficient in reaching the hesitation point.

lovati4 - Not sure if your post includes questions for me or food for thought for the crew. If for me - I don't know why it is so difficult - your explanations and solutions seem fine. I can only speak for my players that were taught/allowed to develop without regard for proper mechanics as I define them - as such they have a lot of motor malware that is very difficult to reprogram.

In light of the second paragraph I re-read # 37 and saw that my objection to the first sentence was based more on my knowledge of a golf backswing (knees and hips engineering a slow take-a-way to initiate all movement).

A similar thing happens in many service motions, but I see now that you, lovati4, were referring to the crucial part of the tract where racket going down strives to be synchronized with legs going up.

Sorry about that.