Shoulder rotation and getting to trophy position

[glacierguy]

Beautiful video, thanks Stotty. Never get tired of watching my boyhood hero. Great shots from above showing how far into the court he tossed the ball.

[don_budge]

Beautiful video, thanks Stotty. Never get tired of watching my boyhood hero. Great shots from above showing how far into the court he tossed the ball.

He is also maximising his height on the ball as well. So you are effectively maximising two variables...height and distance in the court. He's at full stretch. The optimal strike will vary with spin somewhat. But tossing that ball in the right spot is half the battle and also will induce a better motion. Keep at it!

[glacierguy]

I guess everyone's seen this already, but you never know...It's my favourite.

[don_budge]

The Bad One was my all time favourite as well. I grew up with him is that is not an oxymoron. I saw him the first time he tried to qualify for the U. S. Open playing an infamous match against a guy named Zan Guerry. McEnroe actually wrote about the match in his book..."You cannot be Serious". He lost it and he was walking out in the parking lot bitching and kicking gravel. My buddies and I were standing by our car and I said to him..."you got robbed Kid". He looked at me and sort of mumbled..."thanks".

I wrote a couple of threads as I was experimenting with his strokes. Johnny...Johnny. The flesh is weak...only the soul is immortal.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/2297-my-thoughts-on-the-mcenroe-forehand

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/forum/tennisplayer/2311-my-thoughts-on-the-mcenroe-backhand

[don_budge]

I guess everyone's seen this already, but you never know...It's my favourite.

Great video...I have seen it many times and I will watch it at least this once more. Arthur sort of comes across as a grumpy old man.

[don_budge]

Then there was this thread about he and Borg at the U. S. Open in 1980.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/bulleti...-s-open-finals

Every point in this epic was a masterpiece. That is not to say there weren't mistakes and mishits. But taken as a whole the match must nearly be described point by point. I had to watch the match several times to come up with the words to describe the action. The points were like single brushstrokes that make up a great masterpiece. It reminded me of the moment only a couple of months ago when I stood at the very top of the Eiffel Tower in Paris looking down at that classic and old traditional city in Europe. Each building from that height looked like a single brush stroke and put them all together you had the wonderful visual whole that makes up the city of Paris. Like a beautiful painting every single brush stroke adds up to make up the whole.

The individual buildings on the ground were masterpieces of architecture as well. You walk along the streets admiring the craftsmanship and beauty from the ground level in the micro view as opposed to the macro view from the top of the Eiffel tower.

The same as this match. Such an intricate tapestry of tennis and all of its nuances. The variety of strokes...the variety of tactics. The infinite number of possibilities...permutations and combinations. Then there is the complexity of the players and their emotions and their tactical acumen and their individual interpretation of THE GAME. THE GAME OF TENNIS as it was meant to be played.

In tennis, in art and in life there is a balance. Even the universe is somehow balanced although theoretically. Equal parts positive and negative. Perhaps the human race has an equal balance as well...the summation of all of our actions and intents equal parts good and evil. But one thing is very clear to me and there is absolutely no way around it because in this very case for once and for all I am right...the game of tennis has been compromised by the actions of the very human hands that invented it. That precious balance that the game had and endured for so many years was compromised by an overabundance of speed in the game. It's simple. What was lost was tennis that was played like on this September afternoon between the last of the great rivalries in tennis...John McEnroe and Bjorn Borg.

From the Horse's mouth...John McEnroe




The great John McEnroe discusses the 1980 U. S. Open Championships in his superb autobiography..."Serious". This is what he had to say about it.

"I had won the U. S. Open the year before but I had won it without having to play Connors or Borg. In 1980 I would have to play them both...not to mention Ivan Lendl.

I still consider the '80 Open the best physical achievement in my career. In the quarterfinals, on Thursday night I beat Lendl 7-5 in the fourth set; the next morning Peter (Fleming) and I played the doubles final against Stan Smith and Bob Lutz, which we lost in a tough five setter. I really felt we should have won that match but I couldn't feel too broken up about losing it, since it felt like kind of a last hurrah for the great doubles team of Smith and Lutz (whom we'd beaten in the final the previous year). I had particular respect for Stan, because of his dedication to Davis Cup.

On Saturday I played Connors in a wild semifinal. After I'd won the first set 6-4 and gone up 5-3 in the second, I got a little tight and Jimmy went on an unbelievable tear, working up the crowd in his intimitable style...our seesaw battle sawed once more and we ended up in a fifth set tie-breaker.

I should mention that I have always liked the tie-break rule...the rule of thumb is that the stronger server has the edge...and I knew that was me. I knew if I could just get a couple of good serves in I would win.

Then on Sunday, still depleted, I got into another one of my classic battles against Borg (who hadn't had to play doubles or Connors). The fast court favored me but after I'd gone up 7-6, 6-1 Bjorn once again capitalizing on my fatigue and his superior conditioning, started inching his way back into the match. I'm postitve he had our Wimbledon match in mind...I know I did. He must have been thinking that I would wilt again, and the king of five-setters would once more prevail. Bjorn did much better in five-setters overall than he did in three-setters simply because he was so much fitter than almost anyone else.

Not so fast.

I'm sure that after I lost the third and fourth sets, the crowd thought Borg would ride his momentum to take the fifth set and his first U. S. Open title. Strangely enough...though that very expectation (the crowd is always a critical component in a big match) helped me relax and pump myself up. I had lost a match I should have won at Wimbledon. I didn't want to do that again.

I had come this far, I thought, I could stick with it and win this match. I had a surprise in store for my hometown crowd. Getting off to a good start in the fifth set helped me to grab a second wind, a lost shot of adrenaline. In the end, one break of Bjorn's serve was all I needed.

When we shook hands, I could see that he was devastated. He had started out the year by winning the Masters, his first-ever major title in New York this was supposed to have been the other bookend. I sensed he felt I had finally gotten the upper hand on him."

....from the horse's mouth of the great John McEnroe.

[don_budge]

John McEnroe...THE RITES OF PASSAGE

I'm watching it...I'm watching it! Man...it is just so good! But check out his serve at 1.05 in the video glacierguy. See the racquet face is in a very Federesque position at the top of his backswing. The face of the racquet is down. His motion sort of got a way from him in a sense because this look is virtually friction free. The stance is not as exaggerated. Great, great video. I'm at the part where his mom and dad with Tony Palafox and Harry Hopman are all having a little sit-down. Vintage McEnroe! When Mac was pure Mac. I love the attention given to the 1980 Borg U. S. Open final. That was a huge turning point for both boys.

[don_budge]

glacierguy...here is the article John Yandell wrote about the John McEnroe serve. It was great viewing your serve with your self induced idiosyncratic hitch. The video "Rite of Passage...John McEnroe truly illustrated the self induce hitch in John's motion. I haven't reread the article by John but I will.

The video "John McEnroe...THE RITES OF PASSAGE" is a wonderful story about one of the greatest tennis players ever. As I left off last time on the forum here Bud Collins was just beginning a group interview with the most important people in young McEnroe's life. His parents and his coaches. It was absolutely incredible to listen to Harry Hopman expound on the work in process that was McEnroe at the moment and project him into the future. No wonder that Harry Hopman is the coach in my tennis coaching paradigm. The wizened old Aussie.

The video hits close to home for me. I believe I witnessed one of the watermark moments of the young John McEnroe at a country club that was hosting the qualifying rounds for the 1976 U. S. Open. I was in New York with a friend and we were staying with his friend...a Jewish kid named Jeff Wolfman. Wolfman knew all about young McEnroe and as we traveled to see this match he explained that this was the next greatest tennis player in the world we were going to see. The next Ille Nastase.

But John McEnroe certainly turned out to be his own man. He lived by the sword and he eventually fizzled out by it too. He could have perhaps lasted a lot longer but fame and celebrity sort of erode on the hunger. He lost that edge. But man did he ever have the edge. The video was just compelling. An intimate look at what it was to be John McEnroe.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/john_yandell/VisualTennis_Part2/Yandell_VTP2_McEnroe_Case_Study.html?

Thanks to John Yandell for this article. I will read it once again. After all...I reread entire Dostoyevsky novels two or three times. I rewatch the McEnroe/Borg 1980 U. S. Open final several times. Why not? Repetitive motions.

[glacierguy]

Thanks don_budge, I'll study the John Yandell article. Even the music on Rites of Passage is wonderful. I now associate Grace Jones' "La Vie en Rose" with the graceful movement of McEnroe in the opening sequence. It's gym this weekend for me, and I'm serving again Monday morning. I'm hoping for some quiet concentration. I shall see if I can rotate shoulders without my hitch, and stay a bit more upright and reach tall into the contact, with a toss more into the court. I'm feeling positive. Thanks!

[johnyandell]

So it's a long convulted thread. What were the issues you wanted me to respond to?

[don_budge]

So it's a long convulted thread. What were the issues you wanted me to respond to?

It did meander a bit but it's on thread. The title being "Shoulder Rotation and Getting to Trophy Position".

Thanks for checking in johnyandell. Take a look at post #35 if your would and specifically in the video from .20 to .25 in the counter. He bottoms out in the backswing and then in his own words..."deliberately supinates (?) the forearm". This is the antithesis of Federesque.

I advise against this deliberate supination and he cites McEnroe as a model...which I saw before he even said that. McEnroe did not make this sort of move initially in his career but he got a "bit off track" later. There are some excellent video shots of McEnroe's motion and he definitely was not doing this as I said...early on. Given your intimate knowledge of the McEnroe motion and the repair work you did on it...what do you think of the motion of glacierguy?

Thanks again for taking the time.

[johnyandell]

I think it looks pretty good. Look at this:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members...rve_large.html

If I understand what supination means that move was pretty much there all along. I like the Federer model better, but not sure what the negative is. I belive backswings can vary wildly. What matters is getting to the full racket drop position which GG does and then rotating the hand arm and racket as a unit up to the ball and out into the followthrough, which GG also does.

Here is something that describes the key commonalities:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/ultimate_fundamentals/john_yandell/the_serve/

[glacierguy]

Thanks very much John. I can hardly believe that you took the time to comment on my serve! It's amazing. I'm encouraged to keep going - I know I can do better (injuries permitting). If my serve is any good at all, it's in large part down to TennisPlayer's library of videos and articles which I have devoured. Funnily enough, although great names like McEnroe and Federer have been mentioned during this thread as models (or not), the videos I have burnt into my brain are those of Pete Sampras serving. To me, his action is perfect. And I'm using his racquet, so I have no excuses.

[johnyandell]

GG,
Not a problem. Sampras probably had the greatest serve of all time. Did you see this series?

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/sampras_serve/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed.html

PS sounds like you are using the site exactly the way we designed it!

[stotty]

Thanks very much John. I can hardly believe that you took the time to comment on my serve! It's amazing. I'm encouraged to keep going - I know I can do better (injuries permitting). If my serve is any good at all, it's in large part down to TennisPlayer's library of videos and articles which I have devoured. Funnily enough, although great names like McEnroe and Federer have been mentioned during this thread as models (or not), the videos I have burnt into my brain are those of Pete Sampras serving. To me, his action is perfect. And I'm using his racquet, so I have no excuses.

GG,
Not a problem. Sampras probably had the greatest serve of all time. Did you see this series?

https://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/sampras_serve/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed/sampras_serve_racket_head_speed.html

PS sounds like you are using the site exactly the way we designed it!

Sampras had a great serve. He hit it with a real thump. It was heavier than Roger's and went quicker. One imagines the ball weighed a ton if you were on the receiving end...heavy ball stuff.

I do think Roger's is an easier model, though.