The 4 Pillars of the Type III ATP Forehand

[stotty]

We are on the same page. Verdasco's fh is a top 5 no doubt. A lefty obviously like Nadal, but it appears to be overall not as opressingly blundeaning as Nadal's. Fognini has long been a top 5 forehand to me that appears to fall in that maximum 165 degree bend that Brian mentioned. His countryman Berrenttini, obviously a bigger stronger guy than Fognini, seems to have similar technique to Fognini and an even more opressive forehand to me.

My son shot a lovely clip of Verdasco around ten years ago when we were at Wimbledon. Verdasco was playing Robin Haase. In the clip he delivers a first serve which Haase just gets a racket to and manages to float it deep to the baseline. I like showing this clip to juniors because of all the little steps Verdasco takes to get in the perfect position to hit the perfect shot. I don't think I have ever seen any player hit a dead ball as hard as Verdasco hit this one...maybe only Del Potro. It's a sensational forehand and second only to Roger's in terms of beauty...but that's just my opinion.

https://youtu.be/4xe6v1yRA-c

[rthodges]

Verdasco is a beast! I remember the first time I saw him live, it was his match against Nadal at the 2009 AO, and he has absolutely crushing the ball. One thing I’ve noticed is that his take back has the same acute a elbow angle and upper arm position as Nadal’s, but Nadal gets much more external shoulder rotation in the forward swing.

BrianGordon , have you noticed any biomechanical changes in Federer’s forehand over the years or has it stayed relatively the same? For instance, his forehands from 2004-2007 seemed to have the largest descending loop and a greater horizontal component, while his 2017- present forehand seems to have the smallest descending loop and the greatest vertical component.

[BrianGordon]

Thanks bobbyswift - I have designed a few simple drills to make them understand and work on that component in relative isolation. The bigger problem is getting the hitting arm forward at contact and stabilizing the elbow (no bending) so the roll produces a predictable result.

rthodges - yes, he has made changes related mostly to racquet orientation exiting the backswing/entering the forward swing. These seem to be adaptations to handle certain types of incoming balls. As I mentioned in the article the type III swing, as I teach it, has some of these adaptations but they don't impact the core concepts of the forward swing.

[doctorhl]

Thanks bobbyswift - I have designed a few simple drills to make them understand and work on that component in relative isolation. The bigger problem is getting the hitting arm forward at contact and stabilizing the elbow (no bending) so the roll produces a predictable result.

rthodges - yes, he has made changes related mostly to racquet orientation exiting the backswing/entering the forward swing. These seem to be adaptations to handle certain types of incoming balls. As I mentioned in the article the type III swing, as I teach it, has some of these adaptations but they don't impact the core concepts of the forward swing.

I wonder if Fed’s development of his forehand, straight arm, early contact, coupled with the right speed of internal shoulder rotation is connected with his exceptionally long gaze at contact? His early contact and slight head tilt may be a result of his peculiar gazing, which has been described as “ looking through the strings at the back face of the racket”. Maybe that helped develop early contact or rhythm of the shot? Or, perhaps no connection, just an idiosyncracy?

[BrianGordon]

I wonder if Fed’s development of his forehand, straight arm, early contact, coupled with the right speed of internal shoulder rotation is connected with his exceptionally long gaze at contact? His early contact and slight head tilt may be a result of his peculiar gazing, which has been described as “ looking through the strings at the back face of the racket”. Maybe that helped develop early contact or rhythm of the shot? Or, perhaps no connection, just an idiosyncracy?

That one I can't answer. Certainly they are connected - purely guessing I'd say the head steadiness and gaze evolved to optimize his stroke results rather than being the genesis for development of the stroke. Either way, no question it is very important to his quality of ball striking.

[jperedo]

Just when i thought 2020 was a total write off, in comes BG with a killer article to save the year. I've been perplexed by how the non-twist arm rotation was supposed to be done, this clears it up really well! can't wait to try on the courts...

Brian - one question from me. How should the shoulder internal rotation be timed, relative to the start of the non-twist rotation? Should the internal rotation be triggered by the non-twist rotation? Or does it even matter?

[BrianGordon]

Hey jperedo - that is high praise indeed - let me know how it proceeds. So... it matters a lot. The non-twisting drives the flip (external rotation) over about the first 2/3 of the forward swing - it is reversed to internal rotation in the final 1/3 prior to contact. I call it the flip to roll transition and it happens pretty quick - you really have to just play with it to get the feel and timing that works best for you.

[seano]

Hand height out of the back swing is critical. It should start approximately 6" (10-15 degrees) below the contact point. This is a very important aspect of the linearization of the swing path. The external to internal coupling allows the racquet head to end up horizontal at impact. I was making the mistake, in trying to learn to flip, of starting with my hand above the contact point. Screwed everything up

[jperedo]

Hey jperedo - that is high praise indeed - let me know how it proceeds. So... it matters a lot. The non-twisting drives the flip (external rotation) over about the first 2/3 of the forward swing - it is reversed to internal rotation in the final 1/3 prior to contact. I call it the flip to roll transition and it happens pretty quick - you really have to just play with it to get the feel and timing that works best for you.

BrianGordon I was messing around with this the last couple of days on court, but still struggling to get the feel for the independent arm motion. Just to make sure I understand correct - should one try to start the independent arm motion *before* the “flip”? That seems to be the part I struggle to visualize as its not easy to see on video.

[BrianGordon]

There is non-twisting throughout the forward swing. The early amount is subtle aiding linearization; later it's role becomes more extensive (through sequencing) in driving hand speed. But rather than getting caught in the weeds, this is how I get my players to think about it: In the early part of the forward swing (where the flip occurs) the hip and torso rotation drive the hand motion allowing relative relaxation of the shoulder during the flip. Later in the forward swing (where the roll occurs) the now sequenced non-twisting shoulder motion takes over. Crude as this is, the cue I use is - "hips cause flips then fire the arm" - the biomechanist in me cringes but the KISS nature seems to resonate.

[jperedo]

There is non-twisting throughout the forward swing. The early amount is subtle aiding linearization; later it's role becomes more extensive (through sequencing) in driving hand speed. But rather than getting caught in the weeds, this is how I get my players to think about it: In the early part of the forward swing (where the flip occurs) the hip and torso rotation drive the hand motion allowing relative relaxation of the shoulder during the flip. Later in the forward swing (where the roll occurs) the now sequenced non-twisting shoulder motion takes over. Crude as this is, the cue I use is - "hips cause flips then fire the arm" - the biomechanist in me cringes but the KISS nature seems to resonate.

Haha crudeness aside, gain solace that those magic words worked amazing for me today!

Do you have any magic words for keeping the hitting elbow in the proper position throughout the swing?

[BrianGordon]

Sadly no - if you find some let me know. This is the biggest problem in building this stroke and apparently blood, sweat, tears and A LOT of time are the only solution.

[stotty]

Do you have any magic words for keeping the hitting elbow in the proper position throughout the swing?

That was a great question. Shame there is no nugget for that one. I have a girl who keep her elbow just in the right position and then just prior to the critical moment, drops it...so frustrating.

[jperedo]

That was a great question. Shame there is no nugget for that one. I have a girl who keep her elbow just in the right position and then just prior to the critical moment, drops it...so frustrating.

Yes it seems to be the most common issue i see in my own stroke when trying to hit the type 3. My theory is it's caused by the extension finishing too soon or pausing relative to the start of the torso rotation. Because the racquet has stopped moving, there's less of that momentum to help get the racquet into the slot positon. To compensate, players dip their elbow to help get the racquet into the slot position. If you compare straightarms to bent elbow forehand (at any level), it seems that during initial part of the forward swing, the straight arm players are still extending the elbow to drop the racquet under the ball, but double benders have more static elbow angles, instead they will tuck the elbow in to get their racquets in similar position. Not sure if anyone else has noticed this.

[stotty]

Yes it seems to be the most common issue i see in my own stroke when trying to hit the type 3. My theory is it's caused by the extension finishing too soon or pausing relative to the start of the torso rotation. Because the racquet has stopped moving, there's less of that momentum to help get the racquet into the slot positon. To compensate, players dip their elbow to help get the racquet into the slot position. If you compare straightarms to bent elbow forehand (at any level), it seems that during initial part of the forward swing, the straight arm players are still extending the elbow to drop the racquet under the ball, but double benders have more static elbow angles, instead they will tuck the elbow in to get their racquets in similar position. Not sure if anyone else has noticed this.

In my experience all sorts of things can happen to effect the elbow position but typically I find girls can get into a decent outside backswing with the elbow away from the torso but where it goes wrong is when they try to steal a little more backswing. They often revert to type (as in type 2) right at the critical moment.

I have to get stuff signed here in the UK to be able to post a player online (understandably) for others to view these days but if I can I will post a 9-year-old girl (decent player) to show what I mean. It's tough to explain in posts...a video paints 10,000 words and saves a lot of explaining.